Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-inI guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in each specificarea of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did you use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did you use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use self locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of the plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately onecuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance. Also, if I'm a member of the EAA's Vintage Aircraft Association, can I attend the Midwest Antique Airplane Association at Brodhead in a few weeks? Seems I read that this is the case, but would like to make sure. Also, I can't find any info on joining the MAAC. Anyone got some info? Best regards,Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N HardwareIn a message dated 8/10/2005 6:27:10 AM Central Standard Time,jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the bolt, orthe thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or two). The griplength is the overall length of the bolt minus the head thickness, minus thelength of the threaded portion. The dash numbering scheme changes as the boltdiameters change, so it is not easy to figure without a table. For example, anAN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32=E2=80=9D, but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32=E2=80=9D,and an AN8-10 only has a grip length of 5/16=E2=80=9D. The dash numbering schemeisalso inconsistent between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 highstrength bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16=E2=80=9Dincrememnts (e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375=E2=80=9D).Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It givesthe grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware, along with awealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they generally have whatyou need in stock and can ship it quickly (except, oddly enough, spruce. Thatalways seems to take longer from them than from Wicks).The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and isoften overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the F-16program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard to believethatone of our front line fighters was designed nearly a third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that even back then I worked on what was called the ATF=E2=80=93 Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is now called the F-22), one of thefirstthings I was taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A boltedjoint relies on friction to hold the parts together =E2=80=93 friction caused bytheclamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent incarrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the loadintension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by tightening.A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the hole inthe material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but inside the holein the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to bear against the sides=20ofthe hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose your grip length to clear thethickness of the bolted joint and then add one or two washers to ensure therewill be some thread unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full threadextending beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered orcounterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small radiusin the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If thischamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edgeof the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that cancause failure of the bolt.When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on analuminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored surface of=20ANhardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating provides a sacrificialanodic surface to protect the aluminum from corrosion. If the plating isremoved and the joint gets wet, a galvanic cell will be established which willcause corrosion of the aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dippingthe hardware in a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standardpractice on the F-16, but I must admit I didn=E2=80=99t go to that extreme on myPietenpol.Jack PhillipsNX899JPJack,That description, and Subject Line, of how to use hardware was a very goodaddition to the archives. Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N HardwareIn a message dated 8/10/2005 6:27:10 AM Central Standard Time,jphillip(at)alarismed.com writes:Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the bolt, orthe thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or two). The griplength is the overall length of the bolt minus the head thickness, minus thelength of the threaded portion. The dash numbering scheme changes as the boltdiameters change, so it is not easy to figure without a table. For example, anAN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32=E2=80=9D, but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32=E2=80=9D,and an AN8-10 only has a grip length of 5/16=E2=80=9D. The dash numbering schemeisalso inconsistent between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 highstrength bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16=E2=80=9Dincrememnts (e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375=E2=80=9D).Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It givesthe grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware, along with awealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they generally have whatyou need in stock and can ship it quickly (except, oddly enough, spruce. Thatalways seems to take longer from them than from Wicks).The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and isoften overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the F-16program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard to believethatone of our front line fighters was designed nearly a third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that even back then I worked on what was called the ATF=E2=80=93 Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is now called the F-22), one of thefirstthings I was taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A boltedjoint relies on friction to hold the parts together =E2=80=93 friction caused bytheclamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent incarrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the loadintension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by tightening.A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the hole inthe material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but inside the holein the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to bear against the sides=20ofthe hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose your grip length to clear thethickness of the bolted joint and then add one or two washers to ensure therewill be some thread unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full threadextending beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered orcounterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small radiusin the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If thischamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edgeof the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that cancause failure of the bolt.When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on analuminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored surface of=20ANhardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating provides a sacrificialanodic surface to protect the aluminum from corrosion. If the plating isremoved and the joint gets wet, a galvanic cell will be established which willcause corrosion of the aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dippingthe hardware in a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standardpractice on the F-16, but I must admit I didn=E2=80=99t go to that extreme on myPietenpol.Jack PhillipsNX899JPJack,That description, and Subject Line, of how to use hardware was a very goodaddition to the archives. Chuck G.________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
> May I piggyback a question onto this topic?>> Why go to the expense of AN hardware when > bolting together parts through a wood > structure? The cheapest bolts known to man > are going to be stronger than wood. > Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the > bolts were overstressed anyway?>> This is not to say I would get my hardware > from the bulk bins down at the local Farm > and Fleet store. Just wondering>> DocFont>>The re-sale value of your aircraft would be reduced more than the addedcost of using A/N hardware.Greg Cardinal ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-inDate: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:05:54 -0400
> May I piggyback a question onto this topic?>> Why go to the expense of AN hardware when > bolting together parts through a wood > structure? The cheapest bolts known to man > are going to be stronger than wood. > Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the > bolts were overstressed anyway?>> This is not to say I would get my hardware > from the bulk bins down at the local Farm > and Fleet store. Just wondering>> DocFont>>The re-sale value of your aircraft would be reduced more than the addedcost of using A/N hardware.Greg Cardinal ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-inDate: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:05:54 -0400
> Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper
Original Posted By: "Steve Eldredge"
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Original Posted By: "Gordon Bowen"
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware withoutordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how manytimes I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it andorder more before I found the first batch. Your method should preventthat and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with theconstruction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, qualityairplane for such a low price.Jack PhillipsNX899JP-----Original Message-----Bolt HelpI'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. Icouldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardwarestore nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several poundsof 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me avery accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assemblyI would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of thethings I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, Iordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a coupleAN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have abunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house forvarious non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts. Hope this helps,Stevee________________________________________________________________________________
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware withoutordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how manytimes I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it andorder more before I found the first batch. Your method should preventthat and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with theconstruction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, qualityairplane for such a low price.Jack PhillipsNX899JP-----Original Message-----Bolt HelpI'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. Icouldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardwarestore nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several poundsof 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me avery accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assemblyI would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of thethings I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, Iordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a coupleAN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have abunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house forvarious non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts. Hope this helps,Stevee________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
For those of you who'd like to get a little better education on bolts andsuch, before using same in your death defying experimental, go buySacramento Sky Ranch tech book. Lots of good stuff as to why you may wantto stick with AN quality bolts on props, etc. Secondly, little tidbitslike AN bolts have their threads pressed in, vs Grade 8 bolts having theirthreads cut in, perhaps leading to stressor cracks, prop losses, puckered-upglider flying and nasty soybean field landings.Gordon Bowen -Homer AlaskaCozy IV N64CYOsprey II N64SYPietenpol N-1033B" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan________________________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:09:14 -0400
For those of you who'd like to get a little better education on bolts andsuch, before using same in your death defying experimental, go buySacramento Sky Ranch tech book. Lots of good stuff as to why you may wantto stick with AN quality bolts on props, etc. Secondly, little tidbitslike AN bolts have their threads pressed in, vs Grade 8 bolts having theirthreads cut in, perhaps leading to stressor cracks, prop losses, puckered-upglider flying and nasty soybean field landings.Gordon Bowen -Homer AlaskaCozy IV N64CYOsprey II N64SYPietenpol N-1033B" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan________________________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:09:14 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Original Posted By: "Egan, John"
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
Original Posted By: Steve Ruse
>> Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
Original Posted By:
>>>>>>From: TBYH(at)aol.com>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in>>>>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm>>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they usedin >>each specific>>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nutdid >>you>>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?Did >>you>>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did youuse >>self>>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areasof >>the>>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon howaccurately >>one>>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.>>Fred B.>>May I piggyback a question onto this topic?>>Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together partsthrough a >wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going to bestronger >than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the bolts were >overstressed anyway?>>This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down atthe >local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering>>DocFont>>________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>From: TBYH(at)aol.com>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in>>>>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm>>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they usedin >>each specific>>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nutdid >>you>>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?Did >>you>>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did youuse >>self>>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areasof >>the>>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon howaccurately >>one>>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.>>Fred B.>>May I piggyback a question onto this topic?>>Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together partsthrough a >wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going to bestronger >than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the bolts were >overstressed anyway?>>This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down atthe >local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering>>DocFont>>________________________________________________________________________________