Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
RE: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my Yahoo
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
> I use a highly sophisticated method in checking the tension and that> consists of removing a few inspection covers in the bottom>> of the wings and sticking my hand in there to tug on them here and there.>> Mike C.that sounds awfully similar to a complex and very precise method I use tocheck the structural integrity of the stabilizer before flying my Cheetah.I grab hold of the end of one side and give her a good yanking up and down.DJ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my YahooDate: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:07:41 -0500
> I use a highly sophisticated method in checking the tension and that> consists of removing a few inspection covers in the bottom>> of the wings and sticking my hand in there to tug on them here and there.>> Mike C.that sounds awfully similar to a complex and very precise method I use tocheck the structural integrity of the stabilizer before flying my Cheetah.I grab hold of the end of one side and give her a good yanking up and down.DJ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my YahooDate: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:07:41 -0500
> RE: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my Yahoo
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
>From: "Bill Church" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my Yahoo>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:07:41 -0500>>Chuck,>>I just checked through the full set of drawings, and there is only one>size of tailskid swing arms shown. (There really are no new details>given for the "long" fuselage other than one side view of the fuselage>framework and one side view of the fuselage framework with the plywood>and turtledeck added.) The tailskid is not redrawn for the supplemental>"long fuse" plans.>So, there's likely a pretty good reason why you have never seen any>drawings of the longer one.>>Bill C.>>________________________________>>I didn't realize there was different length swing arms for the two>different lengths fuselages either, until Brodhead '04 when I was>looking over Larry W. award winning Model A Pietenpol. He pointed out>that that's the reason for the cross bar between the Vee, up close to>where the pivot mount is, is because the swing arm would twist without>it. I've never seen any drawings of the longer one.>>Chuck G.>NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
>From: "Bill Church" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my Yahoo>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:07:41 -0500>>Chuck,>>I just checked through the full set of drawings, and there is only one>size of tailskid swing arms shown. (There really are no new details>given for the "long" fuselage other than one side view of the fuselage>framework and one side view of the fuselage framework with the plywood>and turtledeck added.) The tailskid is not redrawn for the supplemental>"long fuse" plans.>So, there's likely a pretty good reason why you have never seen any>drawings of the longer one.>>Bill C.>>________________________________>>I didn't realize there was different length swing arms for the two>different lengths fuselages either, until Brodhead '04 when I was>looking over Larry W. award winning Model A Pietenpol. He pointed out>that that's the reason for the cross bar between the Vee, up close to>where the pivot mount is, is because the swing arm would twist without>it. I've never seen any drawings of the longer one.>>Chuck G.>NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my Yahoo
Original Posted By: "bike.mike"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my YahooIn a message dated 3/22/2006 4:12:13 PM Central Standard Time, eng(at)canadianrogers.com writes:Chuck,I just checked through the full set of drawings, and there is only one size of tailskid swing arms shown. (There really are no new details given for the "long" fuselage other than one side view of the fuselage framework and one sideview of the fuselage framework with the plywood and turtledeck added.) The tailskid is not redrawn for the supplemental "long fuse" plans.So, there's likely a pretty good reason why you have never seen any drawings of the longer one.Bill C.I didn't realize there was different length swing arms for the two different lengths fuselages either, until Brodhead '04 when I was looking over Larry W. award winning Model A Pietenpol. He pointed out that that's the reason for the cross bar between the Vee, up close to where the pivot mount is, is becausethe swing arm would twist without it. I've never seen any drawings of the longer one.Chuck G.NX770CGBill,I didn't measure it, but I seem to remember that Larry's swing arm sure looked longer. That last bay is one of the places that B.H.P. added 2". It maybe mentioned somewhere else, other than the drawings. Has anyone else heard of the longer swing arm ?Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:26:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my YahooIn a message dated 3/22/2006 4:12:13 PM Central Standard Time, eng(at)canadianrogers.com writes:Chuck,I just checked through the full set of drawings, and there is only one size of tailskid swing arms shown. (There really are no new details given for the "long" fuselage other than one side view of the fuselage framework and one sideview of the fuselage framework with the plywood and turtledeck added.) The tailskid is not redrawn for the supplemental "long fuse" plans.So, there's likely a pretty good reason why you have never seen any drawings of the longer one.Bill C.I didn't realize there was different length swing arms for the two different lengths fuselages either, until Brodhead '04 when I was looking over Larry W. award winning Model A Pietenpol. He pointed out that that's the reason for the cross bar between the Vee, up close to where the pivot mount is, is becausethe swing arm would twist without it. I've never seen any drawings of the longer one.Chuck G.NX770CGBill,I didn't measure it, but I seem to remember that Larry's swing arm sure looked longer. That last bay is one of the places that B.H.P. added 2". It maybe mentioned somewhere else, other than the drawings. Has anyone else heard of the longer swing arm ?Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 16:26:25 -0800
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Hi Rick,Dale and I used 1/8" 7X19 galvanized cable for the drag / anti-drag cables on NX18235.Tested / pre-stretched to 60% of rated strength (1200#) prior to installation.No drawbacks.Greg CardinalMinneapolis ----- Original Message -----
Hi Rick,Dale and I used 1/8" 7X19 galvanized cable for the drag / anti-drag cables on NX18235.Tested / pre-stretched to 60% of rated strength (1200#) prior to installation.No drawbacks.Greg CardinalMinneapolis ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: Shaun Smith
RE: Pietenpol-List: Drilled Bolts or Not
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
RE: Pietenpol-List: Added tailwheel pics to my Yahoo
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Pietenpol-List: Piet Paradise
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
Jack wrote->Anyone flying in a Pietenpol will get a huge discount.Knowing Pietenpolers, they will expect nothing less than a 100% discount (especially if they are TACOs). Our friend "The Fisherman" might try to convince us that Belize is Piet Paradise, eh? And Bike.Mike wrote->PS Will your neighbor's daughter be home from college yet?...and my wife heard me laughing all the way downstairs in another room ;o)Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:10:41 -0800 (PST)
Jack wrote->Anyone flying in a Pietenpol will get a huge discount.Knowing Pietenpolers, they will expect nothing less than a 100% discount (especially if they are TACOs). Our friend "The Fisherman" might try to convince us that Belize is Piet Paradise, eh? And Bike.Mike wrote->PS Will your neighbor's daughter be home from college yet?...and my wife heard me laughing all the way downstairs in another room ;o)Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:10:41 -0800 (PST)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: "gcardinal"
One 3/32 cable is rated for 920 Lbs, one such drag wire in a Pietenpol wingit can compensated up to 300 Lbs of drag on the wing.There are 4 drag wires (and 4 anti-drag wires) thus 4 cables can take a1200 Lbs load of drag.Now I only have to figure out how my little Corvair can ever produce 1200Lbs of thrust, :-)Feel free to use 1/8" but 3/32" is already over engineered.Best regards,Hans________________________________________________________________________________
One 3/32 cable is rated for 920 Lbs, one such drag wire in a Pietenpol wingit can compensated up to 300 Lbs of drag on the wing.There are 4 drag wires (and 4 anti-drag wires) thus 4 cables can take a1200 Lbs load of drag.Now I only have to figure out how my little Corvair can ever produce 1200Lbs of thrust, :-)Feel free to use 1/8" but 3/32" is already over engineered.Best regards,Hans________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
A 10' piece of steel channel, hydraulic jack, some uni-strut and all-thread wereused to construct a cable testing rig.A pressure gauge was tapped into the hydraulic jack and calibrated to read poundsof stress directly off the gauge.Simply anchor the ends of the cable in the rig, pump up the jack to 1200# (for1/8" cable) and hold for a few minutes.Use a black felt tip marker to mark the cables at the nicopress or swage fittingsprior to stretching to see if your assemblies slip at all.Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message -----
A 10' piece of steel channel, hydraulic jack, some uni-strut and all-thread wereused to construct a cable testing rig.A pressure gauge was tapped into the hydraulic jack and calibrated to read poundsof stress directly off the gauge.Simply anchor the ends of the cable in the rig, pump up the jack to 1200# (for1/8" cable) and hold for a few minutes.Use a black felt tip marker to mark the cables at the nicopress or swage fittingsprior to stretching to see if your assemblies slip at all.Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: "Dale Johnson"
Hans,The original plans specify 3/32" cable for the drag/antidrag bracing. I have never heard of any breaking during normal operations.About 15 years ago two Pietenpols met head-on, at a grass airstrip near here, and each wound up with smashed right wings. The pilots were uninjured, but substantial damage to both aircraft resulted. An expensive lesson, for sure. Both a/c were soon repaired and are still in service.No.1 Piet had 1/8" cable bracing and No.2 had 3/32" cable bracing. The wing of No.2 was virtually destroyed and the 3/32" inboard drag cable broke. The 1/8" cable of the No.1 did not break, but did stretch somewhat, and its wing required a leading edge section repair, a new front spar (due to evidence of a tiny compression failure) and many rib repairs. The leading edge is much over-strength and this resulted in damage to most of the rib nose sections of both machines. While extensive, the damage to No.1's wing was light compared to the wing of the other Pietenpol, which had to be totally rebuilt with new spars, ribs, etc. The leading edge "bone" of No.2 only required a new section about three feet long, and was the largest surviving wooden part!One could conclude from this episode that the 3/32" cable is adequate. However, being of a suspicious nature, I had used 1/8" 7 x 19 galvanized cable bracing on my Pietenpol for all internal and external wing bracing long before the above incident happened. If I were to build another Piet (which I won't), I would use 1/8" cable inboard and 3/32" cable for the outboard bay in order to save a bit of weight--and I would use a sheet aluminum, or 1/16" plywood, leading edge instead of the over-strength, overweight "bone" for the same reason.BTW, my own Pietenpol was not involved in this incident, and it still has "no damage history" after 35 years (Touch wood!).Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta, Canada)________________________________________________________________________________
Hans,The original plans specify 3/32" cable for the drag/antidrag bracing. I have never heard of any breaking during normal operations.About 15 years ago two Pietenpols met head-on, at a grass airstrip near here, and each wound up with smashed right wings. The pilots were uninjured, but substantial damage to both aircraft resulted. An expensive lesson, for sure. Both a/c were soon repaired and are still in service.No.1 Piet had 1/8" cable bracing and No.2 had 3/32" cable bracing. The wing of No.2 was virtually destroyed and the 3/32" inboard drag cable broke. The 1/8" cable of the No.1 did not break, but did stretch somewhat, and its wing required a leading edge section repair, a new front spar (due to evidence of a tiny compression failure) and many rib repairs. The leading edge is much over-strength and this resulted in damage to most of the rib nose sections of both machines. While extensive, the damage to No.1's wing was light compared to the wing of the other Pietenpol, which had to be totally rebuilt with new spars, ribs, etc. The leading edge "bone" of No.2 only required a new section about three feet long, and was the largest surviving wooden part!One could conclude from this episode that the 3/32" cable is adequate. However, being of a suspicious nature, I had used 1/8" 7 x 19 galvanized cable bracing on my Pietenpol for all internal and external wing bracing long before the above incident happened. If I were to build another Piet (which I won't), I would use 1/8" cable inboard and 3/32" cable for the outboard bay in order to save a bit of weight--and I would use a sheet aluminum, or 1/16" plywood, leading edge instead of the over-strength, overweight "bone" for the same reason.BTW, my own Pietenpol was not involved in this incident, and it still has "no damage history" after 35 years (Touch wood!).Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta, Canada)________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Hi RickTo test the cables I mounted a high pressure gauge on a bottle jack. Than mountedthe bottle jack on a I beam.The gauge wa calibrater in 20 pound incurments. I hope this makes sense.The cable was mounted on the I beam & jack . Than the jack was pumped up to therequired reading and left tosoak.Dale Johnson in Mpls,----- Original Message -----
Hi RickTo test the cables I mounted a high pressure gauge on a bottle jack. Than mountedthe bottle jack on a I beam.The gauge wa calibrater in 20 pound incurments. I hope this makes sense.The cable was mounted on the I beam & jack . Than the jack was pumped up to therequired reading and left tosoak.Dale Johnson in Mpls,----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: "Rick Holland"
> Now I only have to figure out how my little Corvair can ever produce 1200> Lbs of thrust, :-)hmmm I see visions of a torque rolling Piet! actually I just installed an AC brushless motor into my RC Piet model and the thrust is nearly 45oz. on a model that weighs in at about 36oz.... hmm do the math! I've hovered that little Piet (vertical) for about a minute straight... talk about a strange sight!DJ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 22:58:56 -0700
> Now I only have to figure out how my little Corvair can ever produce 1200> Lbs of thrust, :-)hmmm I see visions of a torque rolling Piet! actually I just installed an AC brushless motor into my RC Piet model and the thrust is nearly 45oz. on a model that weighs in at about 36oz.... hmm do the math! I've hovered that little Piet (vertical) for about a minute straight... talk about a strange sight!DJ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 22:58:56 -0700
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: ANNCARLEK(at)aol.com
Guys,We engineer airplanes to be safe for flying.Looking at points of the airframe that break during a crash is notnecessarily relevant.During a crash impact, loads are distributed on the airframe are completelydifferent.But more importantly: if engineered to handle crash impacts, it will alsobe to heavy to fly.By the way, on my Pietenpol I used 3/32" stainless steel wire on all buttwo places.The cross bracing between the Lift struts is 1/8" and tail bracing wiresare 1/16".Hans "Rick Holland" To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires 03/23/2006 11:58 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com GrahamWhen I was talking to William Wayne about his Piet crash he mentioned thatthe impact caused his 3/32" flying strut cables to break (the nicopressheld). He recommended 1/8" cable for these.Rick HOn 3/23/06, Graham Hansen wrote: grhans@cable-lynx.net> Hans, The original plans specify 3/32" cable for the drag/antidrag bracing. I have never heard of any breaking during normal operations. About 15 years ago two Pietenpols met head-on, at a grass airstrip near here, and each wound up with smashed right wings. The pilots were uninjured, but substantial damage to both aircraft resulted. An expensive lesson, for sure. Both a/c were soon repaired and are still in service. No.1 Piet had 1/8" cable bracing and No.2 had 3/32" cable bracing. The wing of No.2 was virtually destroyed and the 3/32" inboard drag cable broke. The 1/8" cable of the No.1 did not break, but did stretch somewhat, and its wing required a leading edge section repair, a new front spar (due to evidence of a tiny compression failure) and many rib repairs. The leading edge is much over-strength and this resulted in damage to most of the rib nose sections of both machines. While extensive, the damage to No.1's wing was light compared to the wing of the other Pietenpol, which had to be totally rebuilt with new spars, ribs, etc. The leading edge "bone" of No.2 only required a new section about three feet long, and was the largest surviving wooden part! One could conclude from this episode that the 3/32" cable is adequate. However, being of a suspicious nature, I had used 1/8" 7 x 19 galvanized cable bracing on my Pietenpol for all internal and external wing bracing long before the above incident happened. If I were to build another Piet (which I won't), I would use 1/8" cable inboard and 3/32" cable for the outboard bay in order to save a bit of weight--and I would use a sheet aluminum, or 1/16" plywood, leading edge instead of the over-strength, overweight "bone" for the same reason. BTW, my own Pietenpol was not involved in this incident, and it still has "no damage history" after 35 years (Touch wood!). Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta, Canada) ========================= - The Pietenpol-List Email = the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-L ... enpol-List ========================= - List Contribution Web Sip; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ================================================--Rick Holland"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"________________________________________________________________________________
Guys,We engineer airplanes to be safe for flying.Looking at points of the airframe that break during a crash is notnecessarily relevant.During a crash impact, loads are distributed on the airframe are completelydifferent.But more importantly: if engineered to handle crash impacts, it will alsobe to heavy to fly.By the way, on my Pietenpol I used 3/32" stainless steel wire on all buttwo places.The cross bracing between the Lift struts is 1/8" and tail bracing wiresare 1/16".Hans "Rick Holland" To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires 03/23/2006 11:58 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com GrahamWhen I was talking to William Wayne about his Piet crash he mentioned thatthe impact caused his 3/32" flying strut cables to break (the nicopressheld). He recommended 1/8" cable for these.Rick HOn 3/23/06, Graham Hansen wrote: grhans@cable-lynx.net> Hans, The original plans specify 3/32" cable for the drag/antidrag bracing. I have never heard of any breaking during normal operations. About 15 years ago two Pietenpols met head-on, at a grass airstrip near here, and each wound up with smashed right wings. The pilots were uninjured, but substantial damage to both aircraft resulted. An expensive lesson, for sure. Both a/c were soon repaired and are still in service. No.1 Piet had 1/8" cable bracing and No.2 had 3/32" cable bracing. The wing of No.2 was virtually destroyed and the 3/32" inboard drag cable broke. The 1/8" cable of the No.1 did not break, but did stretch somewhat, and its wing required a leading edge section repair, a new front spar (due to evidence of a tiny compression failure) and many rib repairs. The leading edge is much over-strength and this resulted in damage to most of the rib nose sections of both machines. While extensive, the damage to No.1's wing was light compared to the wing of the other Pietenpol, which had to be totally rebuilt with new spars, ribs, etc. The leading edge "bone" of No.2 only required a new section about three feet long, and was the largest surviving wooden part! One could conclude from this episode that the 3/32" cable is adequate. However, being of a suspicious nature, I had used 1/8" 7 x 19 galvanized cable bracing on my Pietenpol for all internal and external wing bracing long before the above incident happened. If I were to build another Piet (which I won't), I would use 1/8" cable inboard and 3/32" cable for the outboard bay in order to save a bit of weight--and I would use a sheet aluminum, or 1/16" plywood, leading edge instead of the over-strength, overweight "bone" for the same reason. BTW, my own Pietenpol was not involved in this incident, and it still has "no damage history" after 35 years (Touch wood!). Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN in Alberta, Canada) ========================= - The Pietenpol-List Email = the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-L ... enpol-List ========================= - List Contribution Web Sip; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ================================================--Rick Holland"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers, that smell bad"________________________________________________________________________________
<< Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: "Mark Blackwell"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/23/06In a message dated 3/24/06 4:08:46 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:<< Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wiresCc: shaun-s(at)sbcglobal.netAdding a little "please" will not hurt... Go to the bottom of this mail and follow simple instructions, please. Saludos Gary Gower.Thank you Gary. I was struck by the unpleasentness of this message. do not archive.Carl at Compton Airport.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:54:32 -0500
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 03/23/06In a message dated 3/24/06 4:08:46 AM, pietenpol-list-digest(at)matronics.com writes:<< Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wiresCc: shaun-s(at)sbcglobal.netAdding a little "please" will not hurt... Go to the bottom of this mail and follow simple instructions, please. Saludos Gary Gower.Thank you Gary. I was struck by the unpleasentness of this message. do not archive.Carl at Compton Airport.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:54:32 -0500
Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: "Hans Vander Voort"
Mark,You are correct in that you can design in survivability for the pilotand/or other parts of the airplane.Military airplanes are another example.But these modifications weigh more and need lots of power to fly.To make the whole airplane survive a crash it would weigh so much it wouldnever leave the runway.Or you install a BRS system.Hans. "Mark Blackwell" To Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires 03/24/2006 11:54 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans lots of airplanes are effectively designed to crash and they fly justfine. Just look at most of the crop dusters working. They have heavy rollcages built into a structure, and yes they weigh a lot more but they flywell for what they do. The trick is to find the right balance for the typeof flying that one plans to do.----- Original Message -----
Mark,You are correct in that you can design in survivability for the pilotand/or other parts of the airplane.Military airplanes are another example.But these modifications weigh more and need lots of power to fly.To make the whole airplane survive a crash it would weigh so much it wouldnever leave the runway.Or you install a BRS system.Hans. "Mark Blackwell" To Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires 03/24/2006 11:54 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans lots of airplanes are effectively designed to crash and they fly justfine. Just look at most of the crop dusters working. They have heavy rollcages built into a structure, and yes they weigh a lot more but they flywell for what they do. The trick is to find the right balance for the typeof flying that one plans to do.----- Original Message -----
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Drag wires
Original Posted By: harvey rule