Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
I envy you there Chuck! It is a long step into the cockpit. Interesting whatyou said about the difference between grass and pavement. I haven't landed onpavement yet, but am thinking about it soon. There is a strip not too far awaythat has both. I thought about landing on the grass and taking off on thepavement to start with. Curious how those high pressure spoke wheels will do.Mike, Walt, Jack or anyone else running them have much to say about the differencebetween grass and pavement?Don EmchRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: "Steve Glass"
Hi Guys...I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying. Others I'msure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of pitch trim. I havea nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. While somewhere around 8 gallonsit is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight. If I let go of the stick andleaned back it slowly pitches up. If I leaned forward it slowly pitches down.I know it only makes sense but I don't think I've ever flown anything thatis so easily affected by weight movement!Don EmchRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hi Guys...I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying. Others I'msure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of pitch trim. I havea nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. While somewhere around 8 gallonsit is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight. If I let go of the stick andleaned back it slowly pitches up. If I leaned forward it slowly pitches down.I know it only makes sense but I don't think I've ever flown anything thatis so easily affected by weight movement!Don EmchRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
RE: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: "Sayre, William G"
Re: Pietenpol-List: pavement vs. grass
Original Posted By: "Michael D Cuy"
I'd like to add one item to Mike's post. I try to avoid the seams in the runway if possible. I've landed on a couple where the joint in concrete has caught on the tailwheel. Also I have found carrying 1100 rpm all the way down makes a bounce less likely or a sudden flop onto the runway in the full stall landing.Dick N.----- Original Message -----
I'd like to add one item to Mike's post. I try to avoid the seams in the runway if possible. I've landed on a couple where the joint in concrete has caught on the tailwheel. Also I have found carrying 1100 rpm all the way down makes a bounce less likely or a sudden flop onto the runway in the full stall landing.Dick N.----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: pavement vs. grass
Original Posted By: KMHeide
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: "walt evans"
Hi KenPerhaps you hit on something. Yachts are using active trim tanks usually side to side to reduce heel. Perhaps you could install a small soda bottle fore and aft with a a manual trim pump in the cockpit. Putting the tank as far aft as possible would give you a good amount of moment. You could even have a third port in the cockpit so you could have a little drink while flying along. It could be a problem in the winter with freeze up but I'm sure some suitable ducting could be worked out.Could call it the wet trim system. Thinking more about it the weight penalty is not good perhaps Helium ballons stuffed in each end with a transfer.............................Steve G>From: KMHeide >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim>Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:25:21 -0700 (PDT)>>Clif,>> The first thing you would have to do is figure out the amount of urine >stored inside the bladder. Then applying some mathematical calculations, >you can determine the weight of the uric acid versus untainted liquid water >to arrive at a weight per ounce. Then subtract that number from 6.6033 to >determine the correct amount of ballast within the bladder. In the sagittal >plane you need to calculate the arm for weight and balance to find a >starting point of adjusted movement of weight relative to center of gravity >in the aircraft and the human body. Then and only then can you get the true >accurate number of forward weight deflection within the cabin of a pilot >who has to pee......>> Ken>>Clif Dawson wrote:>>I've been told you can do the same sticking your>arms out.
>>And a question. A pilot takes off from airport A.>As the flight progresses, the pilot finds himself>needing to pee. By the time he reaches his>destination, airport B, his bladder is full.>>How does this accumulation of fluid affect W+B ?>>Clif>>> > Hi Guys...> > I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying.> > Others I'm sure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of >pitch> > trim. I have a nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. While somewhere> > around 8 gallons it is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight. If I> > let go of the stick and leaned back it slowly pitches up. If I leaned> > forward it slowly pitches down. I know it only makes sense but I don't> > think I've ever flown anything that is so easily affected by weight> > movement!> > Don Emch> >>>>---------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 16:26:05 -0400
Hi KenPerhaps you hit on something. Yachts are using active trim tanks usually side to side to reduce heel. Perhaps you could install a small soda bottle fore and aft with a a manual trim pump in the cockpit. Putting the tank as far aft as possible would give you a good amount of moment. You could even have a third port in the cockpit so you could have a little drink while flying along. It could be a problem in the winter with freeze up but I'm sure some suitable ducting could be worked out.Could call it the wet trim system. Thinking more about it the weight penalty is not good perhaps Helium ballons stuffed in each end with a transfer.............................Steve G>From: KMHeide >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim>Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:25:21 -0700 (PDT)>>Clif,>> The first thing you would have to do is figure out the amount of urine >stored inside the bladder. Then applying some mathematical calculations, >you can determine the weight of the uric acid versus untainted liquid water >to arrive at a weight per ounce. Then subtract that number from 6.6033 to >determine the correct amount of ballast within the bladder. In the sagittal >plane you need to calculate the arm for weight and balance to find a >starting point of adjusted movement of weight relative to center of gravity >in the aircraft and the human body. Then and only then can you get the true >accurate number of forward weight deflection within the cabin of a pilot >who has to pee......>> Ken>>Clif Dawson wrote:>>I've been told you can do the same sticking your>arms out.
>>And a question. A pilot takes off from airport A.>As the flight progresses, the pilot finds himself>needing to pee. By the time he reaches his>destination, airport B, his bladder is full.>>How does this accumulation of fluid affect W+B ?>>Clif>>> > Hi Guys...> > I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying.> > Others I'm sure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of >pitch> > trim. I have a nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. While somewhere> > around 8 gallons it is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight. If I> > let go of the stick and leaned back it slowly pitches up. If I leaned> > forward it slowly pitches down. I know it only makes sense but I don't> > think I've ever flown anything that is so easily affected by weight> > movement!> > Don Emch> >>>>---------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 16:26:05 -0400Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: "walt evans"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trimIn a message dated 5/3/2006 7:43:02 AM Central Standard Time, william.g.sayre(at)boeing.com writes:Try holding your arms out. Both to a side to turn, both above to climband one down on each side of the cockpit to lower the nose.Yeah, but I fly in the Kansas wind & thermals...if I tried this method, it would look like I was in the middle of a swarm of killer bees !! :)Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 18:43:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trimIn a message dated 5/3/2006 7:43:02 AM Central Standard Time, william.g.sayre(at)boeing.com writes:Try holding your arms out. Both to a side to turn, both above to climband one down on each side of the cockpit to lower the nose.Yeah, but I fly in the Kansas wind & thermals...if I tried this method, it would look like I was in the middle of a swarm of killer bees !! :)Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 18:43:06 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By:
To all Corvair flyers:This afternoon I visited an open house at a local FBO and float storagebusiness at Lake Hood here in Anchorage. I went specifically to find anA&Pthat had been identified as an EAA technical advisor who works there.After asking him if he would be available to help me with my project hesaid"sometimes," and asked what kind of project I was working on? When Itoldhim about the Pietenpol project, and that it came with a turbo-chargedCorvair engine, he immediately said, "I am not a fan of automotiveenginesin aircraft, those Pientenpol builders seem to like them, but then againthey are flying over farms and fields, and up here we don't have any ofthose, so if your engine quits..My advice to you is to get a 0-200 or an85horse engine for $15-16,000 and forget about the Corvair.My question is how many of you using Corvair engines have encounteredmechanical or carb ice problems while flying with this type of engine,andbeen forced to land as a result of either?Don't worry, I am not easily intimidated, and will forge on despite thistype of blatant opinion.Rob StapletonBirchwood, AlaskaThey that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporarysafety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trimDate: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:46:49 -0400
To all Corvair flyers:This afternoon I visited an open house at a local FBO and float storagebusiness at Lake Hood here in Anchorage. I went specifically to find anA&Pthat had been identified as an EAA technical advisor who works there.After asking him if he would be available to help me with my project hesaid"sometimes," and asked what kind of project I was working on? When Itoldhim about the Pietenpol project, and that it came with a turbo-chargedCorvair engine, he immediately said, "I am not a fan of automotiveenginesin aircraft, those Pientenpol builders seem to like them, but then againthey are flying over farms and fields, and up here we don't have any ofthose, so if your engine quits..My advice to you is to get a 0-200 or an85horse engine for $15-16,000 and forget about the Corvair.My question is how many of you using Corvair engines have encounteredmechanical or carb ice problems while flying with this type of engine,andbeen forced to land as a result of either?Don't worry, I am not easily intimidated, and will forge on despite thistype of blatant opinion.Rob StapletonBirchwood, AlaskaThey that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporarysafety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trimDate: Thu, 4 May 2006 07:46:49 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long reply
Original Posted By: Russ Knaack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long reply> > Rob,> > Not my text, I just cut and pasted this from a website:> > ------As the aircraft carburetor vaporizes fuel, it cools the > intake air by> evaporation. The carburetor venturi also cools the air by > adiabaticallyexpanding the intake air, known as the Joule-Thomson > Effect. If the air> temperature drops below the dew point, moisture in the air > condenses into> water droplets. Thus, water can be present in the carburetor even when> flying in clear skies.> > > Ice forms near the aircraft carburetor butterfly when water droplets> strike parts of the carburetor (typically the butterfly and > venturi) that> are freezing. Freezing is determined by: the outside air > temperature, the> temperature drop, and heat absorption from the engine. With the > throttlepartly closed, such as in a low power descent, you may have > a 10" Hg or> more pressure drop across the throttle butterfly.> > > The more gasoline the carburetor evaporates, the colder the > carburetor. As> your engine idles at the end of the runway, little fuel is > evaporating and> the carburetor's temperature may be above freezing. Adding takeoff > powerincreases the rate of fuel evaporation. Now the carburetor may > be cold> enough to form carburetor ice. Your carburetor can get pretty cold. > Theheat loss from evaporation of gasoline at the stoichiometric > ratio creates> a theoretical temperature drop of 40 degrees F. The adiabatic > expansion of> gas across the carburetor's venturi also lowers the temperature. > Thus, you> could drop the carburetor temperature to freezing and form > carburetor ice> at an ambient temperature of 72 degrees or higher. Stoichiometric > is the> leanest possible mixture. At richer mixtures the ambient > temperature at> which carburetor ice forms is even higher - Lycoming publishes a> temperature range of twenty to 90 degrees F. for carburetor ice.> > > Adding alcohol to gasoline dramatically increases the ambient > temperaturewhere ice forms. Evaporating methyl alcohol creates a > temperature drop of> 300 degrees F. As a result, carburetor ice occurs over a wide range of> temperatures.> > > Your Continental aircraft engine forms carburetor ice at a higher > outsideair temperature than your Lycoming engine since the > carburetor on a> Continental engine absorbs less engine heat. Continental mounts the> carburetor to the intake pipes away from engine heat. Lycoming > mounts the> carburetor to the oil pan where it absorbs heat from the engine > oil. One> side effect of forming carburetor ice at a higher air temperature > is that> the warm air holds more moisture than cold air; therefore, you have a> potential for greater carburetor icing with Continental engines > than with> Lycoming engines ------> > The Corvair WW setup is very similar to a Continental engine and > carb heat> must be applied!> During test running of my Corvair on a test stand I could measure > (and see> and feel ) the cooling effect right behind the carburetor.> It gets cold ! ...very cold at part throttle, the high humidity > will cause> the outside of the intake manifold to get wet (water droplets) > image what> happens on the inside.> > I copied the setup that Mark Langford uses on his Corvair see> >>http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/airbox/> Not his air box but only his heat pick up around the exhaust manifold.> My exhaust manifold is however not stainless steel (stainless steel > is poor> conductor of heat) I used plain carbon steel and painted it black > (maximumheat rejection).> > This works very well, the recommended 90 F temperature rise is easily> achieved.> The hot air is robbing a lot of HP, In flight I can feel the extra few> RPM/HP kick-in when I remove Carb heat.> > Carb heat is not a problem in summer months in the Houston Texas > area, as> temperatures are 90 - 100 degree but rest of the year the > temperatures are> varying between 60 to 80 F and humidity is high year round.> > I fly with carb heat on constantly, only during take off and taxing > on the> ground I use cold filtered air.> Right before take off, during the run up I apply carb heat for > about 1> minute with engine at 2500 RPM.> > Hans> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long reply> > Rob,> > Not my text, I just cut and pasted this from a website:> > ------As the aircraft carburetor vaporizes fuel, it cools the > intake air by> evaporation. The carburetor venturi also cools the air by > adiabaticallyexpanding the intake air, known as the Joule-Thomson > Effect. If the air> temperature drops below the dew point, moisture in the air > condenses into> water droplets. Thus, water can be present in the carburetor even when> flying in clear skies.> > > Ice forms near the aircraft carburetor butterfly when water droplets> strike parts of the carburetor (typically the butterfly and > venturi) that> are freezing. Freezing is determined by: the outside air > temperature, the> temperature drop, and heat absorption from the engine. With the > throttlepartly closed, such as in a low power descent, you may have > a 10" Hg or> more pressure drop across the throttle butterfly.> > > The more gasoline the carburetor evaporates, the colder the > carburetor. As> your engine idles at the end of the runway, little fuel is > evaporating and> the carburetor's temperature may be above freezing. Adding takeoff > powerincreases the rate of fuel evaporation. Now the carburetor may > be cold> enough to form carburetor ice. Your carburetor can get pretty cold. > Theheat loss from evaporation of gasoline at the stoichiometric > ratio creates> a theoretical temperature drop of 40 degrees F. The adiabatic > expansion of> gas across the carburetor's venturi also lowers the temperature. > Thus, you> could drop the carburetor temperature to freezing and form > carburetor ice> at an ambient temperature of 72 degrees or higher. Stoichiometric > is the> leanest possible mixture. At richer mixtures the ambient > temperature at> which carburetor ice forms is even higher - Lycoming publishes a> temperature range of twenty to 90 degrees F. for carburetor ice.> > > Adding alcohol to gasoline dramatically increases the ambient > temperaturewhere ice forms. Evaporating methyl alcohol creates a > temperature drop of> 300 degrees F. As a result, carburetor ice occurs over a wide range of> temperatures.> > > Your Continental aircraft engine forms carburetor ice at a higher > outsideair temperature than your Lycoming engine since the > carburetor on a> Continental engine absorbs less engine heat. Continental mounts the> carburetor to the intake pipes away from engine heat. Lycoming > mounts the> carburetor to the oil pan where it absorbs heat from the engine > oil. One> side effect of forming carburetor ice at a higher air temperature > is that> the warm air holds more moisture than cold air; therefore, you have a> potential for greater carburetor icing with Continental engines > than with> Lycoming engines ------> > The Corvair WW setup is very similar to a Continental engine and > carb heat> must be applied!> During test running of my Corvair on a test stand I could measure > (and see> and feel ) the cooling effect right behind the carburetor.> It gets cold ! ...very cold at part throttle, the high humidity > will cause> the outside of the intake manifold to get wet (water droplets) > image what> happens on the inside.> > I copied the setup that Mark Langford uses on his Corvair see> >>http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/airbox/> Not his air box but only his heat pick up around the exhaust manifold.> My exhaust manifold is however not stainless steel (stainless steel > is poor> conductor of heat) I used plain carbon steel and painted it black > (maximumheat rejection).> > This works very well, the recommended 90 F temperature rise is easily> achieved.> The hot air is robbing a lot of HP, In flight I can feel the extra few> RPM/HP kick-in when I remove Carb heat.> > Carb heat is not a problem in summer months in the Houston Texas > area, as> temperatures are 90 - 100 degree but rest of the year the > temperatures are> varying between 60 to 80 F and humidity is high year round.> > I fly with carb heat on constantly, only during take off and taxing > on the> ground I use cold filtered air.> Right before take off, during the run up I apply carb heat for > about 1> minute with engine at 2500 RPM.> > Hans> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:38:30 -0700 (PDT)
Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair Flyers
Original Posted By: "Glenn Thomas"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol trimI used to try that "Look Ma, no hands!" and "Watch this!" stuff on bicycles, usually with bad results! Anybody tried filling the tires with helium? Every little bit of lift helps, right? : )Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair Flyers
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol trimI used to try that "Look Ma, no hands!" and "Watch this!" stuff on bicycles, usually with bad results! Anybody tried filling the tires with helium? Every little bit of lift helps, right? : )Fred B.La Crosse, WI________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair Flyers
Original Posted By: Gene Beenenga
Got the same type of response from the ABDAR and various folks in my EAA chapter.He didn't say he wouldn't do the maiden or assist in his capacity as TechCounselor but I also got a lot of "encouragement" to abandon the Corvair idea.In fact I was encouraged to abandon the idea of building a Pietenpol which issaid is a "dangerous" plane. I think he is just looking out for me since thePiet seems to require a little more skill than the average plane, and althoughI'm building the plane, I am not a pilot. I'll be interested in seeing theresponses.--------Glenn ThomasN?????http://www.flyingwood.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:11:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Got the same type of response from the ABDAR and various folks in my EAA chapter.He didn't say he wouldn't do the maiden or assist in his capacity as TechCounselor but I also got a lot of "encouragement" to abandon the Corvair idea.In fact I was encouraged to abandon the idea of building a Pietenpol which issaid is a "dangerous" plane. I think he is just looking out for me since thePiet seems to require a little more skill than the average plane, and althoughI'm building the plane, I am not a pilot. I'll be interested in seeing theresponses.--------Glenn ThomasN?????http://www.flyingwood.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:11:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers
Original Posted By: "Steve Glass"
Rob,I fly a Corvair since late August of last year, I am still working away onthe 40 Hour test period, weather and work have been getting in the way.A few hours in to the test phase I had a engine out and had to make a offfield landing, which was no problem as I had enough altitude to find a goodfield.No damage to the Airplane and a few experiences wiser.The engine out was caused by a fuel starvation problem.I used a 11 gallon wing tank and a 2 gallon header tank, the 2 gallon tankwas empty when I landed. ( could hear the fuel flowing back in when I wason the ground)The original system had a ventilation line on the 2 gallon header tank toavoid air in this tank.However in flight this vent would create a pressure on the header tank thatstop all fuel from the main tank.The vent cap of the main tank is also in a low pressure area on the wing,which contributed to the problem.I made some fix with a check valve on the header tank vent line ( airallowed out but not in) and re-arranged the vent line to avoid excesspressure.I flew another 4-5 hours this way but was never comfortable with it.A 2 gallon header tank gives you about 25 minutes of airtime at which timeyou get the urge to land.I finally removed the 2 gallon header tank and replaced it with Piper J3tank in the nose (12.5 Gallons) it shifted my CG forward which Icompensated with changing my exhaust system ( changed the cast ironmanifolds for a much lighter header system)Been flying with that setup for more than 20 hours now and have had noproblems.My Corvair is a '65 , 110HP Corvair conversion as per William Wynne manual.It is a very smooth and powerful engine, I would rate its reliability asvery high, very close to a Continental.If it had dual spark plugs it would be an equal.Still fly with a non nitrated Crankshaft too, although I have a spare onethat is being nitrated.If I had a O-200, C90/85 I would have used it,only because you do not haveto deal with a 40 Test phase (25 hours if you have a aircraft engine)Of course there is money issue as well, total expense on my Corvair was6,000- US with all moving parts to new specs, I did not cut any corners onrebuilding the engine. (the crank in hindsight being the exception)Furthermore I believe two more Pietenpols had to make a forced landing lastyear, both Continental powered, go figure..It is very rarely the engine that causes a problem it is most likely thesystems around it that fail.Hans________________________________________________________________________________
Rob,I fly a Corvair since late August of last year, I am still working away onthe 40 Hour test period, weather and work have been getting in the way.A few hours in to the test phase I had a engine out and had to make a offfield landing, which was no problem as I had enough altitude to find a goodfield.No damage to the Airplane and a few experiences wiser.The engine out was caused by a fuel starvation problem.I used a 11 gallon wing tank and a 2 gallon header tank, the 2 gallon tankwas empty when I landed. ( could hear the fuel flowing back in when I wason the ground)The original system had a ventilation line on the 2 gallon header tank toavoid air in this tank.However in flight this vent would create a pressure on the header tank thatstop all fuel from the main tank.The vent cap of the main tank is also in a low pressure area on the wing,which contributed to the problem.I made some fix with a check valve on the header tank vent line ( airallowed out but not in) and re-arranged the vent line to avoid excesspressure.I flew another 4-5 hours this way but was never comfortable with it.A 2 gallon header tank gives you about 25 minutes of airtime at which timeyou get the urge to land.I finally removed the 2 gallon header tank and replaced it with Piper J3tank in the nose (12.5 Gallons) it shifted my CG forward which Icompensated with changing my exhaust system ( changed the cast ironmanifolds for a much lighter header system)Been flying with that setup for more than 20 hours now and have had noproblems.My Corvair is a '65 , 110HP Corvair conversion as per William Wynne manual.It is a very smooth and powerful engine, I would rate its reliability asvery high, very close to a Continental.If it had dual spark plugs it would be an equal.Still fly with a non nitrated Crankshaft too, although I have a spare onethat is being nitrated.If I had a O-200, C90/85 I would have used it,only because you do not haveto deal with a 40 Test phase (25 hours if you have a aircraft engine)Of course there is money issue as well, total expense on my Corvair was6,000- US with all moving parts to new specs, I did not cut any corners onrebuilding the engine. (the crank in hindsight being the exception)Furthermore I believe two more Pietenpols had to make a forced landing lastyear, both Continental powered, go figure..It is very rarely the engine that causes a problem it is most likely thesystems around it that fail.Hans________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel Problems
Original Posted By: Hans Vander Voort
Hi GuysI was wondering if anybody has done any studies on engine out causes. We all hear the horror stories of cranks breaking but I bet that 90% of the time an engine stops. It is out of fuel for one reason or another.Aircraft or auto no fuel no go.Does anybody know of any hard data out there?Steve G________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel Problems
Hi GuysI was wondering if anybody has done any studies on engine out causes. We all hear the horror stories of cranks breaking but I bet that 90% of the time an engine stops. It is out of fuel for one reason or another.Aircraft or auto no fuel no go.Does anybody know of any hard data out there?Steve G________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel Problems
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
SteveNTSB has done this accross all aircraft (www.ntsb.gov)The Fuel system is one of the main reasons for engine out causes.Hans "Steve Glass" To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: Fuel Problems 05/04/2006 08:36 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hi GuysI was wondering if anybody has done any studies on engine out causes. Weall hear the horror stories of cranks breaking but I bet that 90% of thetime an engine stops. It is out of fuel for one reason or another.Aircraft or auto no fuel no go.Does anybody know of any hard data out there?Steve G________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:49:43 -0400 (EDT)
SteveNTSB has done this accross all aircraft (www.ntsb.gov)The Fuel system is one of the main reasons for engine out causes.Hans "Steve Glass" To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Pietenpol-List: Fuel Problems 05/04/2006 08:36 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hi GuysI was wondering if anybody has done any studies on engine out causes. Weall hear the horror stories of cranks breaking but I bet that 90% of thetime an engine stops. It is out of fuel for one reason or another.Aircraft or auto no fuel no go.Does anybody know of any hard data out there?Steve G________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:49:43 -0400 (EDT)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long reply
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Good reply.Yes, I have read Wynne's website info and the story by an obviousfollowerof his, also a journalist.My thinking is, if carb ice is a problem with this engine, then what hasbeen done to thwart it. Wynne makes reference to a joint carb heatdevicethat as you throttle back applies carb heat. I talked with a guy who upherewho ran the Corvair in VW buses, and he said they are "very" prone toicingup and also uses them in air boats and more than once has seen ice buildupon them, and even wrapped the manifold with asbestos cloth to help theproblem.What kind of baffling and other devices have been tried, and is there acorrelation to the size of the intake manifold and carb set-up thatcontributes to this problem?I sent Wynne this question, and have not heard back from him yet.RSThey that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporarysafety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin-----Original Message-----
Good reply.Yes, I have read Wynne's website info and the story by an obviousfollowerof his, also a journalist.My thinking is, if carb ice is a problem with this engine, then what hasbeen done to thwart it. Wynne makes reference to a joint carb heatdevicethat as you throttle back applies carb heat. I talked with a guy who upherewho ran the Corvair in VW buses, and he said they are "very" prone toicingup and also uses them in air boats and more than once has seen ice buildupon them, and even wrapped the manifold with asbestos cloth to help theproblem.What kind of baffling and other devices have been tried, and is there acorrelation to the size of the intake manifold and carb set-up thatcontributes to this problem?I sent Wynne this question, and have not heard back from him yet.RSThey that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporarysafety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long reply
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
Rob,Not my text, I just cut and pasted this from a website:------As the aircraft carburetor vaporizes fuel, it cools the intake air byevaporation. The carburetor venturi also cools the air by adiabaticallyexpanding the intake air, known as the Joule-Thomson Effect. If the airtemperature drops below the dew point, moisture in the air condenses intowater droplets. Thus, water can be present in the carburetor even whenflying in clear skies.Ice forms near the aircraft carburetor butterfly when water dropletsstrike parts of the carburetor (typically the butterfly and venturi) thatare freezing. Freezing is determined by: the outside air temperature, thetemperature drop, and heat absorption from the engine. With the throttlepartly closed, such as in a low power descent, you may have a 10" Hg ormore pressure drop across the throttle butterfly.The more gasoline the carburetor evaporates, the colder the carburetor. Asyour engine idles at the end of the runway, little fuel is evaporating andthe carburetor's temperature may be above freezing. Adding takeoff powerincreases the rate of fuel evaporation. Now the carburetor may be coldenough to form carburetor ice. Your carburetor can get pretty cold. Theheat loss from evaporation of gasoline at the stoichiometric ratio createsa theoretical temperature drop of 40 degrees F. The adiabatic expansion ofgas across the carburetor's venturi also lowers the temperature. Thus, youcould drop the carburetor temperature to freezing and form carburetor iceat an ambient temperature of 72 degrees or higher. Stoichiometric is theleanest possible mixture. At richer mixtures the ambient temperature atwhich carburetor ice forms is even higher - Lycoming publishes atemperature range of twenty to 90 degrees F. for carburetor ice.Adding alcohol to gasoline dramatically increases the ambient temperaturewhere ice forms. Evaporating methyl alcohol creates a temperature drop of300 degrees F. As a result, carburetor ice occurs over a wide range oftemperatures.Your Continental aircraft engine forms carburetor ice at a higher outsideair temperature than your Lycoming engine since the carburetor on aContinental engine absorbs less engine heat. Continental mounts thecarburetor to the intake pipes away from engine heat. Lycoming mounts thecarburetor to the oil pan where it absorbs heat from the engine oil. Oneside effect of forming carburetor ice at a higher air temperature is thatthe warm air holds more moisture than cold air; therefore, you have apotential for greater carburetor icing with Continental engines than withLycoming engines ------The Corvair WW setup is very similar to a Continental engine and carb heatmust be applied!During test running of my Corvair on a test stand I could measure (and seeand feel ) the cooling effect right behind the carburetor.It gets cold ! ...very cold at part throttle, the high humidity will causethe outside of the intake manifold to get wet (water droplets) image whathappens on the inside.I copied the setup that Mark Langford uses on his Corvair see>>http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/airbox/Not his air box but only his heat pick up around the exhaust manifold.My exhaust manifold is however not stainless steel (stainless steel is poorconductor of heat) I used plain carbon steel and painted it black (maximumheat rejection).This works very well, the recommended 90 F temperature rise is easilyachieved.The hot air is robbing a lot of HP, In flight I can feel the extra fewRPM/HP kick-in when I remove Carb heat.Carb heat is not a problem in summer months in the Houston Texas area, astemperatures are 90 - 100 degree but rest of the year the temperatures arevarying between 60 to 80 F and humidity is high year round.I fly with carb heat on constantly, only during take off and taxing on theground I use cold filtered air.Right before take off, during the run up I apply carb heat for about 1minute with engine at 2500 RPM.Hans________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:27:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Rob,Not my text, I just cut and pasted this from a website:------As the aircraft carburetor vaporizes fuel, it cools the intake air byevaporation. The carburetor venturi also cools the air by adiabaticallyexpanding the intake air, known as the Joule-Thomson Effect. If the airtemperature drops below the dew point, moisture in the air condenses intowater droplets. Thus, water can be present in the carburetor even whenflying in clear skies.Ice forms near the aircraft carburetor butterfly when water dropletsstrike parts of the carburetor (typically the butterfly and venturi) thatare freezing. Freezing is determined by: the outside air temperature, thetemperature drop, and heat absorption from the engine. With the throttlepartly closed, such as in a low power descent, you may have a 10" Hg ormore pressure drop across the throttle butterfly.The more gasoline the carburetor evaporates, the colder the carburetor. Asyour engine idles at the end of the runway, little fuel is evaporating andthe carburetor's temperature may be above freezing. Adding takeoff powerincreases the rate of fuel evaporation. Now the carburetor may be coldenough to form carburetor ice. Your carburetor can get pretty cold. Theheat loss from evaporation of gasoline at the stoichiometric ratio createsa theoretical temperature drop of 40 degrees F. The adiabatic expansion ofgas across the carburetor's venturi also lowers the temperature. Thus, youcould drop the carburetor temperature to freezing and form carburetor iceat an ambient temperature of 72 degrees or higher. Stoichiometric is theleanest possible mixture. At richer mixtures the ambient temperature atwhich carburetor ice forms is even higher - Lycoming publishes atemperature range of twenty to 90 degrees F. for carburetor ice.Adding alcohol to gasoline dramatically increases the ambient temperaturewhere ice forms. Evaporating methyl alcohol creates a temperature drop of300 degrees F. As a result, carburetor ice occurs over a wide range oftemperatures.Your Continental aircraft engine forms carburetor ice at a higher outsideair temperature than your Lycoming engine since the carburetor on aContinental engine absorbs less engine heat. Continental mounts thecarburetor to the intake pipes away from engine heat. Lycoming mounts thecarburetor to the oil pan where it absorbs heat from the engine oil. Oneside effect of forming carburetor ice at a higher air temperature is thatthe warm air holds more moisture than cold air; therefore, you have apotential for greater carburetor icing with Continental engines than withLycoming engines ------The Corvair WW setup is very similar to a Continental engine and carb heatmust be applied!During test running of my Corvair on a test stand I could measure (and seeand feel ) the cooling effect right behind the carburetor.It gets cold ! ...very cold at part throttle, the high humidity will causethe outside of the intake manifold to get wet (water droplets) image whathappens on the inside.I copied the setup that Mark Langford uses on his Corvair see>>http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/airbox/Not his air box but only his heat pick up around the exhaust manifold.My exhaust manifold is however not stainless steel (stainless steel is poorconductor of heat) I used plain carbon steel and painted it black (maximumheat rejection).This works very well, the recommended 90 F temperature rise is easilyachieved.The hot air is robbing a lot of HP, In flight I can feel the extra fewRPM/HP kick-in when I remove Carb heat.Carb heat is not a problem in summer months in the Houston Texas area, astemperatures are 90 - 100 degree but rest of the year the temperatures arevarying between 60 to 80 F and humidity is high year round.I fly with carb heat on constantly, only during take off and taxing on theground I use cold filtered air.Right before take off, during the run up I apply carb heat for about 1minute with engine at 2500 RPM.Hans________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:27:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long reply
Original Posted By: Hans Vander Voort
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long replyThis sounds logical and the procedure you use is what I would have imagined. Accordingto this I would assume that you use carb heat during flight and especiallyduring throttle back rpm reductions!Rob----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long replyThis sounds logical and the procedure you use is what I would have imagined. Accordingto this I would assume that you use carb heat during flight and especiallyduring throttle back rpm reductions!Rob----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers
Original Posted By:
put your planes to good use!I will be helping the Minuteman Project in the near future. Both with myunmanned helicopters as well as my Grumman Cheetah.I plan to fly the Cheetah down to the border during an organized Minutemanfield excercise and provide aerial recon for gound based units. I'mguessing I'll cruise around at about 700-1200' AGL and maybe 80mph or solooking for illegals for 2 or 3 hours at a time (yes I call them illegals!)We'll also be trying out one of my new aerial video helicopters to try andspot illegals. I had a major setback in that business in February but somethings have happened and we're going strong with a couple new helicoptersthat aren't as failure prone.so get your Piets (or whatever you can get your hand on) and help theMinuteman Project by volunteering some time and gas money to help secure ourborders!!DJ Vegh(honorary TACO member & Corona drinker extrodinaire)PS. yes I drink Corona but I only the drink the stuff that comes herelegally imported.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair FlyersDate: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:07:57 -0400
put your planes to good use!I will be helping the Minuteman Project in the near future. Both with myunmanned helicopters as well as my Grumman Cheetah.I plan to fly the Cheetah down to the border during an organized Minutemanfield excercise and provide aerial recon for gound based units. I'mguessing I'll cruise around at about 700-1200' AGL and maybe 80mph or solooking for illegals for 2 or 3 hours at a time (yes I call them illegals!)We'll also be trying out one of my new aerial video helicopters to try andspot illegals. I had a major setback in that business in February but somethings have happened and we're going strong with a couple new helicoptersthat aren't as failure prone.so get your Piets (or whatever you can get your hand on) and help theMinuteman Project by volunteering some time and gas money to help secure ourborders!!DJ Vegh(honorary TACO member & Corona drinker extrodinaire)PS. yes I drink Corona but I only the drink the stuff that comes herelegally imported.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair FlyersDate: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:07:57 -0400
Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair Flyers - long reply
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
They made it legal and got hitched recently. I forget exactly when butwithin the last yearmichael ----- Original Message -----
They made it legal and got hitched recently. I forget exactly when butwithin the last yearmichael ----- Original Message -----
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: TBYH(at)aol.com
>>Clif,>> The first thing you would have to do is figure out the amount ofurine >stored inside the bladder. Then applying some mathematicalcalculations, >you can determine the weight of the uric acid versus untainted liquidwater >to arrive at a weight per ounce. Then subtract that number from 6.6033to >determine the correct amount of ballast within the bladder. In thesagittal >plane you need to calculate the arm for weight and balance to find a >starting point of adjusted movement of weight relative to center ofgravity >in the aircraft and the human body. Then and only then can you get thetrue >accurate number of forward weight deflection within the cabin of apilot >who has to pee......>> Ken>>Clif Dawson wrote:>>I've been told you can do the same sticking your>arms out.>>And a question. A pilot takes off from airport A.>As the flight progresses, the pilot finds himself>needing to pee. By the time he reaches his>destination, airport B, his bladder is full.>>How does this accumulation of fluid affect W+B ?>>Clif>>> > Hi Guys...> > I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying.> > Others I'm sure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of >pitch> > trim. I have a nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. Whilesomewhere> > around 8 gallons it is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight.If I> > let go of the stick and leaned back it slowly pitches up. If Ileaned> > forward it slowly pitches down. I know it only makes sense but Idon't> > think I've ever flown anything that is so easily affected by weight> > movement!> > Don Emch> >>>>---------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________
>>Clif,>> The first thing you would have to do is figure out the amount ofurine >stored inside the bladder. Then applying some mathematicalcalculations, >you can determine the weight of the uric acid versus untainted liquidwater >to arrive at a weight per ounce. Then subtract that number from 6.6033to >determine the correct amount of ballast within the bladder. In thesagittal >plane you need to calculate the arm for weight and balance to find a >starting point of adjusted movement of weight relative to center ofgravity >in the aircraft and the human body. Then and only then can you get thetrue >accurate number of forward weight deflection within the cabin of apilot >who has to pee......>> Ken>>Clif Dawson wrote:>>I've been told you can do the same sticking your>arms out.
>>And a question. A pilot takes off from airport A.>As the flight progresses, the pilot finds himself>needing to pee. By the time he reaches his>destination, airport B, his bladder is full.>>How does this accumulation of fluid affect W+B ?>>Clif>>> > Hi Guys...> > I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying.> > Others I'm sure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of >pitch> > trim. I have a nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. Whilesomewhere> > around 8 gallons it is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight.If I> > let go of the stick and leaned back it slowly pitches up. If Ileaned> > forward it slowly pitches down. I know it only makes sense but Idon't> > think I've ever flown anything that is so easily affected by weight> > movement!> > Don Emch> >>>>---------------------------------________________________________________________________________________________>> Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting trim
Original Posted By: "MICHAEL SILVIUS"
>>>>Clif,>>>> The first thing you would have to do is figure out the amount of urine >> stored inside the bladder. Then applying some mathematical calculations, >> you can determine the weight of the uric acid versus untainted liquid >> water to arrive at a weight per ounce. Then subtract that number from >> 6.6033 to determine the correct amount of ballast within the bladder. In >> the sagittal plane you need to calculate the arm for weight and balance >> to find a starting point of adjusted movement of weight relative to >> center of gravity in the aircraft and the human body. Then and only then >> can you get the true accurate number of forward weight deflection within >> the cabin of a pilot who has to pee......>>>> Ken>>>>Clif Dawson wrote:>>>>I've been told you can do the same sticking your>>arms out.>>>>And a question. A pilot takes off from airport A.>>As the flight progresses, the pilot finds himself>>needing to pee. By the time he reaches his>>destination, airport B, his bladder is full.>>>>How does this accumulation of fluid affect W+B ?>>>>Clif>>>>>> > Hi Guys...>> > I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying.>> > Others I'm sure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of>>pitch>> > trim. I have a nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. While somewhere>> > around 8 gallons it is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight. If >> > I>> > let go of the stick and leaned back it slowly pitches up. If I leaned>> > forward it slowly pitches down. I know it only makes sense but I don't>> > think I've ever flown anything that is so easily affected by weight>> > movement!>> > Don Emch>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------->>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://wiki.matronics.com>>> ________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>Clif,>>>> The first thing you would have to do is figure out the amount of urine >> stored inside the bladder. Then applying some mathematical calculations, >> you can determine the weight of the uric acid versus untainted liquid >> water to arrive at a weight per ounce. Then subtract that number from >> 6.6033 to determine the correct amount of ballast within the bladder. In >> the sagittal plane you need to calculate the arm for weight and balance >> to find a starting point of adjusted movement of weight relative to >> center of gravity in the aircraft and the human body. Then and only then >> can you get the true accurate number of forward weight deflection within >> the cabin of a pilot who has to pee......>>>> Ken>>>>Clif Dawson wrote:>>>>I've been told you can do the same sticking your>>arms out.
>>>>And a question. A pilot takes off from airport A.>>As the flight progresses, the pilot finds himself>>needing to pee. By the time he reaches his>>destination, airport B, his bladder is full.>>>>How does this accumulation of fluid affect W+B ?>>>>Clif>>>>>> > Hi Guys...>> > I figured out something really cool the other morning while flying.>> > Others I'm sure have figured this out too. I don't have any kind of>>pitch>> > trim. I have a nose tank that holds about 14.5 gallons. While somewhere>> > around 8 gallons it is pretty much in trim in pitch with my weight. If >> > I>> > let go of the stick and leaned back it slowly pitches up. If I leaned>> > forward it slowly pitches down. I know it only makes sense but I don't>> > think I've ever flown anything that is so easily affected by weight>> > movement!>> > Don Emch>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--------------------------------->>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> http://wiki.matronics.com>>> ________________________________________________________________________________