Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
When I built my A65, my cylinders were worn to the limits. I looked intohaving them chromed and rebuilt. Cost was $550 per cylinder. Then I lookedat Superior's Millenium cylinders which were $800 per cylinder, but you gotnew pistons, new rings, new valves, new valve springs, new valve seats, newrocker shafts and new piston pins. With the rebuild you have thequestionable durability of the chrome, plus everything is still 60+ yearsold. I bought the Millemium cylinders.An added benefit was the increased accuracy of their casting process for thepistons. I weighed all reciprocating components to get the engine massbalanced as well as possible. All four of the new pistons were within 1gram of each other. The original pistons varied by as much as 10 grams.The engine runs extremely smoothly.Jack PhillipsNX899JP -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CG
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CG
Original Posted By: "Gordon Bowen"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CGPieters, Does anyone have any experience with croming 65 cont cylinders. Mine are .015 over and pretty much to the limits and I wonder if new ones are aviable, if crome is the best way to go and which type is the best and what are the cost. Also is anyone flying around with the cg at 30 percent and how does it fly. I could lose some weight but you know how that goes. Ken in rainy Iowa________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CGPieters, Does anyone have any experience with croming 65 cont cylinders. Mine are .015 over and pretty much to the limits and I wonder if new ones are aviable, if crome is the best way to go and which type is the best and what are the cost. Also is anyone flying around with the cg at 30 percent and how does it fly. I could lose some weight but you know how that goes. Ken in rainy Iowa________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CG
Original Posted By: Wizzard187(at)aol.com
Ken,Re CG, as you burn off fuel the Cg will be moving back with you in theplane. Even a traditional NACA wing does not allow over 32% aft cg. The Piete wing as designed doesn't allow that far aft without muchoproblems with needed lift from the tail feathers, and loss of control. highly recommend a) cut back on the big Mac's (my problem), b) add somelead to the engine compartment if your gross weight is ok with addedlead. Aft CG dangerous place to be. I designed my Piete with an 0-235extended forward and battery forward of empty cg and still need to besure not to fly with less than 5 gal of fuel so not to go beyond 32% ofchord. My Piete has Aeronca wings, more forgiving than original PieteGordon ----- Original Message -----
Ken,Re CG, as you burn off fuel the Cg will be moving back with you in theplane. Even a traditional NACA wing does not allow over 32% aft cg. The Piete wing as designed doesn't allow that far aft without muchoproblems with needed lift from the tail feathers, and loss of control. highly recommend a) cut back on the big Mac's (my problem), b) add somelead to the engine compartment if your gross weight is ok with addedlead. Aft CG dangerous place to be. I designed my Piete with an 0-235extended forward and battery forward of empty cg and still need to besure not to fly with less than 5 gal of fuel so not to go beyond 32% ofchord. My Piete has Aeronca wings, more forgiving than original PieteGordon ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CG
Original Posted By: "Mark Blackwell"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CG
Original Posted By: "Steve Glass"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CGIn a message dated 5/12/2006 8:35:02 PM Central Standard Time, Wizzard187(at)aol.com writes:Pieters, Does anyone have any experience with croming 65 cont cylinders. Mine are .015 over and pretty much to the limits and I wonder if new ones are aviable, if crome is the best way to go and which type is the best and what arethe cost. Also is anyone flying around with the cg at 30 percent and how does it fly. I could lose some weight but you know how that goes. Ken in rainy IowaKen,I had my cylinders chromed at :Aircraft Cylinders of AmericaTulsa, Oklahoma918-582-1785The actual chrome process cost only $125 per cylinder, however, there is many other costs associated with rebuilding the four cylinders, such as clean & inspect, overhaul & certify, new valves, guides, springs, seats, keepers, studs,bushings, and leak tests. My total bill for them came to a little over $1800. Advantages of chrome, is you can bring the cylinder bore back to standardbore, and if they claim that if the engine sits idle for extended periods, thecylinders will Not rust. Chrome cylinders are identified by the orange paint on the exterior of the base of the cylinders.Chuck G.NX770CGp.s. I saved about 7 pages of discussion of Continental A65 engine rebuilding, from Jan. '03, I could send you in e-mail direct...if you wish me to.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CGIn a message dated 5/12/2006 8:35:02 PM Central Standard Time, Wizzard187(at)aol.com writes:Pieters, Does anyone have any experience with croming 65 cont cylinders. Mine are .015 over and pretty much to the limits and I wonder if new ones are aviable, if crome is the best way to go and which type is the best and what arethe cost. Also is anyone flying around with the cg at 30 percent and how does it fly. I could lose some weight but you know how that goes. Ken in rainy IowaKen,I had my cylinders chromed at :Aircraft Cylinders of AmericaTulsa, Oklahoma918-582-1785The actual chrome process cost only $125 per cylinder, however, there is many other costs associated with rebuilding the four cylinders, such as clean & inspect, overhaul & certify, new valves, guides, springs, seats, keepers, studs,bushings, and leak tests. My total bill for them came to a little over $1800. Advantages of chrome, is you can bring the cylinder bore back to standardbore, and if they claim that if the engine sits idle for extended periods, thecylinders will Not rust. Chrome cylinders are identified by the orange paint on the exterior of the base of the cylinders.Chuck G.NX770CGp.s. I saved about 7 pages of discussion of Continental A65 engine rebuilding, from Jan. '03, I could send you in e-mail direct...if you wish me to.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CG
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Chuck G.I would be interested in that email also. I just bought a torn aparta65. Everything looks good but the cylinders.Nick Harrisnharris25(at)yahoo.com ----- Original Message -----
Chuck G.I would be interested in that email also. I just bought a torn aparta65. Everything looks good but the cylinders.Nick Harrisnharris25(at)yahoo.com ----- Original Message -----
Re: *****SPAM***** Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cylinders and CG
Original Posted By: Nick Harris
Kas Thomas a few years back (around 1994) wrote in TBO Advisor thatChannel chrome should be avoided because of step-wear problems. Hewasn't too impressed with Satin chrome process either. There is a thirdchrome process, but the name escapes me, and I think it is lesssuseptable to step wear (the wearing at the last few milimeters at thetop of the jug where the piston stops and returns after the compressionstroke and exhaust.Thomas wrote a glowing review about Cerminil. I sent my cyclinders frommy Lycoming 0-320 E2A to Engine Components, Inc. back in 1995 and wasvery happy with the process. I had the same process (Cerminil) done tomy Continental A-80 cyclinders, but I have no experience yet runningthis engine.I know there are lots of folks from the "old-school" who would trynothing but Chrome, but Thomas wrote that nickel is a very hard process,isn't prone to step wear. Thomas also advised that oil "likes" to adhereto nickle better than chrome and the logic here suggests betterlubricity over chrome.The only way I was able to get the Cerminal process done on the "A"series Continental was to go through Century Cyclinders in Fort Worth.ECI no longer takes the jugs direct from the customer, but they willaccept them from a shop like Century. (Century is a nice shop to dobusiness with in my experience...)I can also tell you the A&P/AI who installed the Cerminil cyclinders onmy A-80 said he had to take a die grinder to one of the cyclinders toremove some material at the top of the jug that was interfering with thepiston during full compression. (I wasn't real happy about that andnearly wrote a letter to ECI about their quality control process) butother than that I am totally impressed with nickle. It is a much newerprocess than chrome, but then again, there are folks out there with thementality, "if chrome was good enough for grand daddy, it's good enoughfor me..." I have to admit I personally have very little experience withchrome except for the 160 horsepower Lycoming in my Cessna that Irecntly bought... I only have 3 hours flying time with this engine andhave not had an opportunity to do an oil analysis with it yet.I blew a gasket in my 0-320 engine having the Cerminil (a few years backand became a glider pilot) and lost all my oil. I managed to set theairplane down on my farm without "buying the farm" and when we tore theLycoming apart, my crankshaft and bearings were shot and I sent thecyclinders back to ECI for a teardown and inspection. The cyclinderspassed with flying colors. I have no idea how chrome would have handledthat extra heat (no oil) but a mechanic told me that chrome can developspider-web cracks by getting super hot like this, then shutting theengine off in mid air (like I did to do a dead-stick landing)... mymechanic said chrome would have likely gone through a shock-coolingprocess and result in the spider web cracks... Chrome is more brittlethan nickle, thus the problem is exacerbated with chrome during theshock cooling according to the mechanic... This guy studied metalurgywhen he was getting his college degree and A&P license...Sterling----- Original Message -----
Kas Thomas a few years back (around 1994) wrote in TBO Advisor thatChannel chrome should be avoided because of step-wear problems. Hewasn't too impressed with Satin chrome process either. There is a thirdchrome process, but the name escapes me, and I think it is lesssuseptable to step wear (the wearing at the last few milimeters at thetop of the jug where the piston stops and returns after the compressionstroke and exhaust.Thomas wrote a glowing review about Cerminil. I sent my cyclinders frommy Lycoming 0-320 E2A to Engine Components, Inc. back in 1995 and wasvery happy with the process. I had the same process (Cerminil) done tomy Continental A-80 cyclinders, but I have no experience yet runningthis engine.I know there are lots of folks from the "old-school" who would trynothing but Chrome, but Thomas wrote that nickel is a very hard process,isn't prone to step wear. Thomas also advised that oil "likes" to adhereto nickle better than chrome and the logic here suggests betterlubricity over chrome.The only way I was able to get the Cerminal process done on the "A"series Continental was to go through Century Cyclinders in Fort Worth.ECI no longer takes the jugs direct from the customer, but they willaccept them from a shop like Century. (Century is a nice shop to dobusiness with in my experience...)I can also tell you the A&P/AI who installed the Cerminil cyclinders onmy A-80 said he had to take a die grinder to one of the cyclinders toremove some material at the top of the jug that was interfering with thepiston during full compression. (I wasn't real happy about that andnearly wrote a letter to ECI about their quality control process) butother than that I am totally impressed with nickle. It is a much newerprocess than chrome, but then again, there are folks out there with thementality, "if chrome was good enough for grand daddy, it's good enoughfor me..." I have to admit I personally have very little experience withchrome except for the 160 horsepower Lycoming in my Cessna that Irecntly bought... I only have 3 hours flying time with this engine andhave not had an opportunity to do an oil analysis with it yet.I blew a gasket in my 0-320 engine having the Cerminil (a few years backand became a glider pilot) and lost all my oil. I managed to set theairplane down on my farm without "buying the farm" and when we tore theLycoming apart, my crankshaft and bearings were shot and I sent thecyclinders back to ECI for a teardown and inspection. The cyclinderspassed with flying colors. I have no idea how chrome would have handledthat extra heat (no oil) but a mechanic told me that chrome can developspider-web cracks by getting super hot like this, then shutting theengine off in mid air (like I did to do a dead-stick landing)... mymechanic said chrome would have likely gone through a shock-coolingprocess and result in the spider web cracks... Chrome is more brittlethan nickle, thus the problem is exacerbated with chrome during theshock cooling according to the mechanic... This guy studied metalurgywhen he was getting his college degree and A&P license...Sterling----- Original Message -----