Original Posted By: "glich7(at)juno.com"
Well it's awfully quiet on the list for the last few daysHere is something to get things started:I went out flying yesterday in the Piet, another hot afternoon but humiditywas for a change below 50%I took of to the North and made a wide circle around the home fieldclimbing up to 1200 feet.Dove hunting season has started in Texas, so low and slow is asking fortrouble. (FLAK)10 minutes in to the flight my Corvair engine CHT climbed up to 475 F, thatnever happened before thus I set up for a landing.On final temperature dropped again (engine idling), while on the ground Idid another run up, everything checked out OKDecided to take her up again. During climb out at 500 feet the enginebecame erratic and dropped a good 500 RPM.I decided to land right away, engine ran fine again when power was reduced.I strongly suspect that my recent fill-up with Mogas was not the octanelevel as was advertised, every thing indicated detonation.It is hard to hear in a open cockpit but I did hear a unusualpinging/ticking sound coming from the engine.The three months 10% ethanol is mandatory in Mogas in Texas, this was myfirst fresh batch of fuel that would have had Ethanol.Ethanol would increase the octane level.But ethanol will also dissolve water.If it is saturated with water would it lean out a engine enough (waterdisplacing fuel) to cause detonation ?Then again water would cool the combustion process.I will be using Avgas from now on.Hans________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Bad Fuel
Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad Fuel
Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
ShadI run a Tennessee prop 64 x 34Static is about 2900 RPMHans shad bell To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad Fuel 09/09/2006 12:05 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Man! that sounds all too famillar. We ran only 100LL in our corvair butthat sounds like similar symtoms. Eventually our crank broke and luckly wedid not tear up the airplane. I'm by far no expert on corvairs but what isyour static rpm, climb-out rpm and what prop are you using. We aregrounded, probobly untill next spring when we rebuild another engine. Weare using a Heggy 66-30 (I believe) wodden prop and we were getting3150-3300 static. I'm just currious about others performance with thecorvairs.ShadHans Vander Voort wrote: Well it's awfully quiet on the list for the last few days Here is something to get things started: I went out flying yesterday in the Piet, another hot afternoon but humidity was for a change below 50% I took of to the North and made a wide circle around the home field climbing up to 1200 feet. Dove hunting season has started in Texas, so low and slow is asking for trouble. (FLAK) 10 minutes in to the flight my Corvair engine CHT climbed up to 475 F, that never happened before thus I set up for a landing. On final temperature dropped again (engine idling), while on the ground I did another run up, everything checked out OK Decided to take her up again. During climb out at 500 feet the engine became erratic and dropped a good 500 RPM. I decided to land right away, engine ran fine again when power was reduced. I strongly suspect that my recent fill-up with Mogas was not the octane level as was advertised, every thing indicated detonation. It is hard to hear in a open cockpit but I did hear a________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:44:38 -0400
ShadI run a Tennessee prop 64 x 34Static is about 2900 RPMHans shad bell To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad Fuel 09/09/2006 12:05 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Man! that sounds all too famillar. We ran only 100LL in our corvair butthat sounds like similar symtoms. Eventually our crank broke and luckly wedid not tear up the airplane. I'm by far no expert on corvairs but what isyour static rpm, climb-out rpm and what prop are you using. We aregrounded, probobly untill next spring when we rebuild another engine. Weare using a Heggy 66-30 (I believe) wodden prop and we were getting3150-3300 static. I'm just currious about others performance with thecorvairs.ShadHans Vander Voort wrote: Well it's awfully quiet on the list for the last few days Here is something to get things started: I went out flying yesterday in the Piet, another hot afternoon but humidity was for a change below 50% I took of to the North and made a wide circle around the home field climbing up to 1200 feet. Dove hunting season has started in Texas, so low and slow is asking for trouble. (FLAK) 10 minutes in to the flight my Corvair engine CHT climbed up to 475 F, that never happened before thus I set up for a landing. On final temperature dropped again (engine idling), while on the ground I did another run up, everything checked out OK Decided to take her up again. During climb out at 500 feet the engine became erratic and dropped a good 500 RPM. I decided to land right away, engine ran fine again when power was reduced. I strongly suspect that my recent fill-up with Mogas was not the octane level as was advertised, every thing indicated detonation. It is hard to hear in a open cockpit but I did hear a________________________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:44:38 -0400
Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: "Jeff Boatright"
Jeff,I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?".I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all.The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out.Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you.The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed.Generiginal Message -----
Jeff,I'd like to throw my two cents in on the question "what's wrong with a steep climb out?".I come from a back ground of both general avation and two stroke airplanes and I'm familiar with both. I currently own and fly a Piet (N502R) with a Continental A 65 and my plane before it was an Avid with a 75 HP 2 stroke. Plus I've owned and flown a number of others. Loved them all.The problem with a steep climb out on take off is if your engine quites you won't have time to get the nose down into a glide (flying speed) before you return to earth. Not good on airframes or human anatomy. I've spent most of my life in Alaska and it has never stopped amazing me how many Alaskan pilots manage to kill themselves and others with a steep climb out. One friend of mine (and a very experienced pilot) took off from his home field in his Super Cub with his small son and his father-in-law on board. His wife and mother-in-law were watching from their living room window. Steep climb out, engine died and so did all three on board (with wife and mother-in-law still watching.). That next winter another pilot that we had both known was killed doing the same thing from a frozen lake. He had put his cub into a steep takeoff climb, showing off to his friends on the ground. He died because he had neglected to turn on his fuel switch and in a steep climbout he just didn't have the speed or altitude to keep from stalling out.Try this. Go up to about 2500 or higher, put your plane into a steep climb just above stall speed, note your altitude and turn the engine off. Once you have your plane back under control and your flying again note your altitude and restart your engine. It'll make a believer out of you.The way I look at it, is that I do enough dumb things while flying that I don't need to do the dumb things that I know will get me killed.Generiginal Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb.With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed.All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not allthat large.I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds andlog the climb rate for each speed.You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation.My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on acool winter day)This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway,(push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude)while speed never exceeds 55 Mph.Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not ahigher altitude at the end of the minute.Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude,Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleetfirst.Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph.And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph.If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitudefirst!Be safe!Hans Jeff Boatright To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 09:44 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steepclimb-out?>>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next>flight.--_____________________________________________________________Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhDAssociate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USASenior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvismailto:jboa ... ______Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
The problem is Angle Of Attack, not the steep climb.With a high AOA you can have a stall well above stall speed.All this is not very likely with a Pietenpol as the speed range is not allthat large.I suggest you make a number of test flights at different climb speeds andlog the climb rate for each speed.You are looking for the best climb rate for normal operation.My Piet best initial climb rate is 750 ft/min at 55 Mph. (achieved on acool winter day)This is measured over one minute beginning when lined up on the runway,(push stopwatch, push full throttle, count of one minute and log altitude)while speed never exceeds 55 Mph.Do this at 40 Mph and your have a higher AOA (steep attitude) but not ahigher altitude at the end of the minute.Before you do all this check your stall speed first at safe altitude,Calibrate your ASI and practice, practice and practice slow speed fleetfirst.Typical stall speed of a Piet is around 30 Mph.And the above intial climb procedure should not be done below 40 Mph.If you want to test climb speeds at around 30 Mph than get some altitudefirst!Be safe!Hans Jeff Boatright To Sent by: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com owner-pietenpol-l cc ist-server@matron ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 09:44 AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com If you're well above stall speed, what is the problem with a steepclimb-out?>>Take off was much better today but according to observers I was still>doing the ultralight thing by bringing the nose of the plane up too far>and taking off at too sharpe an angle.Old habits are hard to correct.I>thought I did it a lot better.I'll have to improve more on the next>flight.--_____________________________________________________________Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhDAssociate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USASenior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvismailto:jboa ... ______Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: Gary Gower
Gary,Thank you for making AGL clear. I made an error when I assumed I was making it clear. It's that kind of mistake that can get someone killed.Again, thank youGene----- Original Message -----
Gary,Thank you for making AGL clear. I made an error when I assumed I was making it clear. It's that kind of mistake that can get someone killed.Again, thank youGene----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By:
Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: Hans Vander Voort
Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with the relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed strait down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall.Jim Dallas ----- Original Message -----
Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with the relative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether you are climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed strait down you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Go to an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they are basically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall.Jim Dallas ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: harvey.rule(at)bell.ca
That's what sky divers do. Pilots, on the other hand, set their altimeters to the altitude at which the airplane sets. (If you were at Leadville, Colorado, and tried to set your altimeter to zero, you would break it.)Always set to actual field elevation when on the ground or to local altimeter setting (sea-level equivalent barometric pressure, given in inches of mercury) when flying. That way you don't have to get into mental math when you go to a different field at a different elevation. ----- Original Message -----
That's what sky divers do. Pilots, on the other hand, set their altimeters to the altitude at which the airplane sets. (If you were at Leadville, Colorado, and tried to set your altimeter to zero, you would break it.)Always set to actual field elevation when on the ground or to local altimeter setting (sea-level equivalent barometric pressure, given in inches of mercury) when flying. That way you don't have to get into mental math when you go to a different field at a different elevation. ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: Hans Vander Voort
Jim,I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear.I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe airspeed is more important than the steep climb.I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at groundlevel)At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph.Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward,ground speed is very slow)Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle.I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speedrange is fairly small.Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was braggingabout a Lomchevak once)(Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg).Hans "James Dallas" Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 01:18 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with therelative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether youare climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed straitdown you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Goto an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they arebasically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall.Jim Dallas ----- Original Message -----
Jim,I am not, but perhaps I was not entirely clear.I was merely trying to make the point that paying attention to safe airspeed is more important than the steep climb.I frequently take off in to a 10 Mph head wind ( this is 10 at groundlevel)At 500 feet this head wind can gradually increase to 20 Mph.Seen from the ground your have now a very steep climb ( your forward,ground speed is very slow)Yet, your AOA is less than stall angle.I do not believe you can get a high speed stall in Pietenpol, the speedrange is fairly small.Did anyone ever achieve a snap roll in a Pietenpol ( someone was braggingabout a Lomchevak once)(Embedded image moved to file: pic27446.jpg).Hans "James Dallas" Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 01:18 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com Hans, Don't confuse deck angle with angle of attack. It has to do with therelative air in which you are moving thru and it doesn't know whether youare climbing, descending or strait and level. With the nose pointed straitdown you can exceed the critical angle of attack and get into a stall. Goto an airshow and watch the pros. To do a snap roll in a dive they arebasically entering into a spin and to spin you must first stall.Jim Dallas ----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Harvey,I believe both methods are correct and legal, but which one to choosedepends on your flight.If you land on the same field you took off from (local flight) than settingat zero is OK.But if you go cross country than calibrating to sea level is no doubt theeasy way to go, as all maps are indicating sea level elevations.Further, If flying at higher altitudes VFR and IFR flight levels apply andthese are set a sea level.Hans Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 12:46 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the locationtheir plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level orwhat the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correctway?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level youwere at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this inadvance.
Harvey,I believe both methods are correct and legal, but which one to choosedepends on your flight.If you land on the same field you took off from (local flight) than settingat zero is OK.But if you go cross country than calibrating to sea level is no doubt theeasy way to go, as all maps are indicating sea level elevations.Further, If flying at higher altitudes VFR and IFR flight levels apply andthese are set a sea level.Hans Sent by: To owner-pietenpol-l ist-server@matron cc ics.com Subject RE: Pietenpol-List: First flight.. 09/18/2006 12:46 PM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com I noticed that some pilots set their altimeter to zero at the locationtheir plane is and others will add in the level they are above sea level orwhat the book sez the airstrip is above sea level.What is the correctway?In my own mind,I always figured it was good to zero at the level youwere at and go from there.Thanks for any info you can give on this inadvance.
Re: Pietenpol-List: First flight..
Original Posted By: "Roman Bukolt"
Harvey,I did my Private Pilot Licence on a 65 hp Aeronca Champion many years ago at Calgary, Alberta. The field elevation there is 3500 feet asl, and we were taught to hold the nose down after liftoff until a climbing speed of 65 mph was achieved. Then, and only then, were we allowed to raise the nose for the climb, while maintaining 65 mph.Sometimes, without warning, the instructor would pull off the power and we had to immediately lower the nose to maintain the gliding/climbing speed of 65 mph. All gliding and climbing turns were made at 70 mph and he was very strict in this regard. 56 years later, I am still around---likely because of what I was taught then (plus some luck).These procedures ensured that we never got close to the stalling angle of attack of the Champ wing, and provided control inputs were well-coordinated, we were pretty safe. Since my Pietenpol is more-or-less in the same class as the old Aeronca 7AC, I have always used these numbers for it, keeping in mind the Pietenpol is lighter and draggier than the Champ. In the event of an engine failure with the Pietenpol, one must react immediately by very aggressively lowering the nose to maintain airspeed. If airspeed is lost during climbout when you have little altitude available, you could be in big trouble. With a Pietenpol, it takes a lot of altitude to recover lost airspeed. Try it sometime at a safe altitude once you have become more familiar with your bird. With my 85 hp Pietenpol I like to climb out at 70 mph, considering the extra airspeed to be "trading material" in an emergency. The rate of climb isn't reduced very much by climbing out at 70. Once I am above 500 feet agl, I typically climb at 65.Essentially I am saying that one should fly carefully when near the ground---especially with a draggy airplane. Your airfield near Ottawa is only slightly above sea level, and that helps. My airfield is at 2500' asl and I must be very careful---particularly with a load.Regarding your question about setting the altimeter, I always set it at the field elevation before takeoff. Aerobatic pilots, I have been told, set it at zero in order to get a direct ground clearance reading without having to do mental computations; they are too busy for that sort of thing.Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________
Harvey,I did my Private Pilot Licence on a 65 hp Aeronca Champion many years ago at Calgary, Alberta. The field elevation there is 3500 feet asl, and we were taught to hold the nose down after liftoff until a climbing speed of 65 mph was achieved. Then, and only then, were we allowed to raise the nose for the climb, while maintaining 65 mph.Sometimes, without warning, the instructor would pull off the power and we had to immediately lower the nose to maintain the gliding/climbing speed of 65 mph. All gliding and climbing turns were made at 70 mph and he was very strict in this regard. 56 years later, I am still around---likely because of what I was taught then (plus some luck).These procedures ensured that we never got close to the stalling angle of attack of the Champ wing, and provided control inputs were well-coordinated, we were pretty safe. Since my Pietenpol is more-or-less in the same class as the old Aeronca 7AC, I have always used these numbers for it, keeping in mind the Pietenpol is lighter and draggier than the Champ. In the event of an engine failure with the Pietenpol, one must react immediately by very aggressively lowering the nose to maintain airspeed. If airspeed is lost during climbout when you have little altitude available, you could be in big trouble. With a Pietenpol, it takes a lot of altitude to recover lost airspeed. Try it sometime at a safe altitude once you have become more familiar with your bird. With my 85 hp Pietenpol I like to climb out at 70 mph, considering the extra airspeed to be "trading material" in an emergency. The rate of climb isn't reduced very much by climbing out at 70. Once I am above 500 feet agl, I typically climb at 65.Essentially I am saying that one should fly carefully when near the ground---especially with a draggy airplane. Your airfield near Ottawa is only slightly above sea level, and that helps. My airfield is at 2500' asl and I must be very careful---particularly with a load.Regarding your question about setting the altimeter, I always set it at the field elevation before takeoff. Aerobatic pilots, I have been told, set it at zero in order to get a direct ground clearance reading without having to do mental computations; they are too busy for that sort of thing.Graham (Pietenpol CF-AUN)________________________________________________________________________________