Original Posted By: "Gene & Tammy"
Yep, mine flies the same way, even with a full tank. Stick forces are also verylight as you described.Dave MordecaiPanacea, FL. The position of the flippers is a little bit > down, > > which is how my plane flies in straight level flight. I've seen this on Corky's> > plane, too (Oscar has custody of it now). Even when the cowling tank is > full, my plane flies level with a little bit of down in the flippers. With less> > than a pound of pull on the stick to get them to be straight, it pitches the> nose up quite a bit. I wonder if other fliers can confirm this in their planes> > ??? > It's so much fun to see the expression of people's face, and their comments,> after their first open cockpit flight !! > > Chuck G. > NX770CG > > > > > Yep, mine flies the same way, even with a full tank. Stick forces arealso very light as you described. Dave MordecaiPanacea, FL . The position of the flippers is a little bit > down, > >which is how my plane flies in straight level flight. I've seen this onCorky's > > plane, too (Oscar has custody of it now). Even whenthe cowling tank is > full, my plane flies level with a little bit of downin the flippers. With less > > than a pound of pull on the stickto get them to be straight, it pitches the > nose up quite a bit.I wonder if other fliers can confirm this in their planes > > ???> It's so much fun to see the expression of people's face, and theircomments, > after their first open cockpit flight !! > >Chuck G. > NX770CG > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: kmordecai001(at)comcast.net
Same with N502R.Gene in Tennessee ----- Original Message -----
Same with N502R.Gene in Tennessee ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: "bike.mike"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelIn a message dated 10/8/2006 8:46:01 AM Central Standard Time, markb1958(at)verizon.net writes:Just curious but what is the CG both as an empty airplane and loaded? I am assuming you are talking about the elevator when you refer to flipper. The tail of the airplane actually creates downforce for control in level flight. With the elevator down creating an upward force, my logic would make me ask if everything else checks out is the weight too far back. The drag is going to slow you down, but in a Piet who cares? If the weight and balance and CG are all within range, I probably wouldn't worry about it.Mark, I was kind of taking a survey of the fliers, to confirm my suspicion, and see if most planes have this characteristic. I always call the elevator's the 'Flippers'...as noted in the book by Wolfgang Langewiesche called 'STICK and RUDDER'. I highly recommend this bookto everyone. The term 'Elevator' is a poor way to describe what those control surfaces actually do. It doesn't matter if it is a model airplane, or the Space Shuttle...The Flippers are the Speed control...Power setting is what makesthe plane go up or down. During straight level flight, even with the slightly down flippers, there is still a downward force on the tail...they're just not down far enough yet to overcome the down force of the horizontal stab. Yes, that does cause some drag called 'Trim Drag', but like you mentioned - it is of little consequence in a plane like the Pietenpol. I set up the weight & balance so that it can NEVER exceed the aft C. G. limit, with my weight (210 lbs) even when there is Zero fuel onboard. You cansee ALL of my C. of G. calculations on my web site at: http://nx770cg.com/OperationsManual.htmlChuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelIn a message dated 10/8/2006 8:46:01 AM Central Standard Time, markb1958(at)verizon.net writes:Just curious but what is the CG both as an empty airplane and loaded? I am assuming you are talking about the elevator when you refer to flipper. The tail of the airplane actually creates downforce for control in level flight. With the elevator down creating an upward force, my logic would make me ask if everything else checks out is the weight too far back. The drag is going to slow you down, but in a Piet who cares? If the weight and balance and CG are all within range, I probably wouldn't worry about it.Mark, I was kind of taking a survey of the fliers, to confirm my suspicion, and see if most planes have this characteristic. I always call the elevator's the 'Flippers'...as noted in the book by Wolfgang Langewiesche called 'STICK and RUDDER'. I highly recommend this bookto everyone. The term 'Elevator' is a poor way to describe what those control surfaces actually do. It doesn't matter if it is a model airplane, or the Space Shuttle...The Flippers are the Speed control...Power setting is what makesthe plane go up or down. During straight level flight, even with the slightly down flippers, there is still a downward force on the tail...they're just not down far enough yet to overcome the down force of the horizontal stab. Yes, that does cause some drag called 'Trim Drag', but like you mentioned - it is of little consequence in a plane like the Pietenpol. I set up the weight & balance so that it can NEVER exceed the aft C. G. limit, with my weight (210 lbs) even when there is Zero fuel onboard. You cansee ALL of my C. of G. calculations on my web site at: http://nx770cg.com/OperationsManual.htmlChuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: "DJ Vegh"
Chuck,You're right in that "elevator" doesn't describe what those surfaces do, anymore than an "aileron" ails or a "fuselage" fuses. However, language is about communicating thought from one person to another. Whatever the term is has to be one that both the speaker and the hearer understand to mean what is meant. There are terms of art in every discipline that don't mean in the same thing outside that discipline. A flipper in a pin ball machine is vastly different from a flipper in scuba diving, for example. An elevator in a building is not a control surface that controls its speed. An elevator on an airplane IS a control surface that controls speed. If we called everything by its function, a wing would be an "primary aerodynamic lifting surface", a propellor would be a "rotating motion to thrust convertor" and so on the inanity goes.If you use the term "elevator" on this list or in any other English-speaking aviation community, everyone knows exactly what you mean. If you use "flipper", we're not sure if we're supposed to listen for a talking dolphin.Mike[snip] I always call the elevator's the 'Flippers'...as noted in the book by Wolfgang Langewiesche called 'STICK and RUDDER'. I highly recommend this book to everyone. The term 'Elevator' is a poor way to describe what those control surfaces actually do. It doesn't matter if it is a model airplane, or the Space Shuttle...The Flippers are the Speed control...Power setting is what makes the plane go up or down. During straight level flight, even with the slightly down flippers, there is still a downward force on the tail...they're just not down far enough yet to overcome the down force of the horizontal stab. Yes, that does cause some drag called 'Trim Drag', but like you mentioned - it is of little consequence in a plane like the Pietenpol. I set up the weight & balance so that it can NEVER exceed the aft C. G. limit, with my weight (210 lbs) even when there is Zero fuel onboard. You can see ALL of my C. of G. calculations on my web site at: http://nx770cg.com/OperationsManual.html Chuck G. NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Chuck,You're right in that "elevator" doesn't describe what those surfaces do, anymore than an "aileron" ails or a "fuselage" fuses. However, language is about communicating thought from one person to another. Whatever the term is has to be one that both the speaker and the hearer understand to mean what is meant. There are terms of art in every discipline that don't mean in the same thing outside that discipline. A flipper in a pin ball machine is vastly different from a flipper in scuba diving, for example. An elevator in a building is not a control surface that controls its speed. An elevator on an airplane IS a control surface that controls speed. If we called everything by its function, a wing would be an "primary aerodynamic lifting surface", a propellor would be a "rotating motion to thrust convertor" and so on the inanity goes.If you use the term "elevator" on this list or in any other English-speaking aviation community, everyone knows exactly what you mean. If you use "flipper", we're not sure if we're supposed to listen for a talking dolphin.Mike[snip] I always call the elevator's the 'Flippers'...as noted in the book by Wolfgang Langewiesche called 'STICK and RUDDER'. I highly recommend this book to everyone. The term 'Elevator' is a poor way to describe what those control surfaces actually do. It doesn't matter if it is a model airplane, or the Space Shuttle...The Flippers are the Speed control...Power setting is what makes the plane go up or down. During straight level flight, even with the slightly down flippers, there is still a downward force on the tail...they're just not down far enough yet to overcome the down force of the horizontal stab. Yes, that does cause some drag called 'Trim Drag', but like you mentioned - it is of little consequence in a plane like the Pietenpol. I set up the weight & balance so that it can NEVER exceed the aft C. G. limit, with my weight (210 lbs) even when there is Zero fuel onboard. You can see ALL of my C. of G. calculations on my web site at: http://nx770cg.com/OperationsManual.html Chuck G. NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
yes it's true.... It's for sale. about 95% complete.105hp Corvair (meticulously built)Grand Rapids engine monitorfully instrumented except xponder and commmatco hydraulic brakesmatco tailwheelcomplete airframeall Sitka spruce and Okoume plytoo much other stuff to listThis plane was built with specific attention to detail. I hate to let her go but after 2 yrs of not being able to work on it I'm beginning to wonder if I ever will... so many things going on in my life regarding work and I'm still young enough to build another one later in life. For the time being I prefer to sell this aircraft to somone who will give it the same affection/attention I did and finish it off and fly it.I've got alot of time and $$ wrapped up into this plane but am willing to take a bit of a loss.email me at dj (at) veghdesign.com and I can talk numbers.LOTS and LOTS of pics of this project atwww.imagedv.com/aircamperDJ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
yes it's true.... It's for sale. about 95% complete.105hp Corvair (meticulously built)Grand Rapids engine monitorfully instrumented except xponder and commmatco hydraulic brakesmatco tailwheelcomplete airframeall Sitka spruce and Okoume plytoo much other stuff to listThis plane was built with specific attention to detail. I hate to let her go but after 2 yrs of not being able to work on it I'm beginning to wonder if I ever will... so many things going on in my life regarding work and I'm still young enough to build another one later in life. For the time being I prefer to sell this aircraft to somone who will give it the same affection/attention I did and finish it off and fly it.I've got alot of time and $$ wrapped up into this plane but am willing to take a bit of a loss.email me at dj (at) veghdesign.com and I can talk numbers.LOTS and LOTS of pics of this project atwww.imagedv.com/aircamperDJ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: "Greg Chapman"
Hey Chuck,My flippers are in the same position you describe. I think just about all of theplans-built Piets have the same characteristic. I think an adjustment in theleading edge of the stabilizer would make the flippers straight but then theweight of them "hanging" probably has some effect too. I'm sure Mr. Pietenpollooked back there on occasion and noticed them slightly low and after buildingmany airplanes basically the same he must have had good reason to not changethe stabilizer incidence. By the way, "flippers" is pretty good Pietenpoltalk. Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hey Chuck,My flippers are in the same position you describe. I think just about all of theplans-built Piets have the same characteristic. I think an adjustment in theleading edge of the stabilizer would make the flippers straight but then theweight of them "hanging" probably has some effect too. I'm sure Mr. Pietenpollooked back there on occasion and noticed them slightly low and after buildingmany airplanes basically the same he must have had good reason to not changethe stabilizer incidence. By the way, "flippers" is pretty good Pietenpoltalk. Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: my 95% GN-1 project is for sale
Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
That is just too hard to believe. While I haven't started a project (or evendecided whether to), yours is the project log I've referenced most often andwhich has set my interest in the direction of the Pietenpol. Sorry to hearyou're letting it go.Greg Chapmanhttp://www.mousetrax.comhttp://www.layer1wireless.com "Don't start with me or I'll replace you with a small and efficient script!" > -----Original Message-----
That is just too hard to believe. While I haven't started a project (or evendecided whether to), yours is the project log I've referenced most often andwhich has set my interest in the direction of the Pietenpol. Sorry to hearyou're letting it go.Greg Chapmanhttp://www.mousetrax.comhttp://www.layer1wireless.com "Don't start with me or I'll replace you with a small and efficient script!" > -----Original Message-----
> Pietenpol-List: my 95% GN-1 project is for sale
Original Posted By: Mark Blackwell
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
RE: Pietenpol-List: Want to Build a Corvair Piet? I've Got All the Books/Manuals
Original Posted By:
Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)AOL.COM
Chuck wrote->The position of the flippers is a little bit down, which is how my plane >flies>in straight level flight. I've seen this on Corky's plane, too (Oscar has >custody>of it now).Some kind soul sent me a very nice photo of 41CC in flight, presumably straight and level, and if there is any "down-flipperness" it is very slight. Here's the link to the picture, see if this compares with your experience of flippers slightly down. And they do have medications available for this condition, I am told ;o)http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/P1010053.jpgOscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
Chuck wrote->The position of the flippers is a little bit down, which is how my plane >flies>in straight level flight. I've seen this on Corky's plane, too (Oscar has >custody>of it now).Some kind soul sent me a very nice photo of 41CC in flight, presumably straight and level, and if there is any "down-flipperness" it is very slight. Here's the link to the picture, see if this compares with your experience of flippers slightly down. And they do have medications available for this condition, I am told ;o)http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/P1010053.jpgOscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By:
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelIn a message dated 10/9/2006 8:31:16 AM Central Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:Some kind soul sent me a very nice photo of 41CC in flight, presumably straight and level, and if there is any "down-flipperness" it is very slight. Here's the link to the picture, see if this compares with your experience of flippers slightly down. And they do have medications available for this condition, I am told ;o)http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/P1010053.jpgOscar,That was one of a series of pictures Corky sent me, and in some of the other ones you could see more clearly the 'down-flipperness'. I think we're gonna have to divy up that medication for everyone !! :)Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelDate: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:42:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelIn a message dated 10/9/2006 8:31:16 AM Central Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:Some kind soul sent me a very nice photo of 41CC in flight, presumably straight and level, and if there is any "down-flipperness" it is very slight. Here's the link to the picture, see if this compares with your experience of flippers slightly down. And they do have medications available for this condition, I am told ;o)http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/P1010053.jpgOscar,That was one of a series of pictures Corky sent me, and in some of the other ones you could see more clearly the 'down-flipperness'. I think we're gonna have to divy up that medication for everyone !! :)Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelDate: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 18:42:42 -0400
Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
Corky,The day that you're fired (or you resign) as "one of us" is the day that we all go to Hell in a handbasket.AlPortland, Maine----- Original Message -----
Corky,The day that you're fired (or you resign) as "one of us" is the day that we all go to Hell in a handbasket.AlPortland, Maine----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelIn a message dated 10/9/2006 5:49:20 PM Central Standard Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:He also told me that in his opinion you could never trim a Piet to fly hands off longer than maybe 10 to 15 seconds. I believed him. Yeah, I think ol' Nathan Moss has something there, and I believe him, too. It's probably due to the light wing load...on a calm day, hands off flight, ifa butterfly farts near you, it will knock the Piet out of trim flight !! :)Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & levelIn a message dated 10/9/2006 5:49:20 PM Central Standard Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:He also told me that in his opinion you could never trim a Piet to fly hands off longer than maybe 10 to 15 seconds. I believed him. Yeah, I think ol' Nathan Moss has something there, and I believe him, too. It's probably due to the light wing load...on a calm day, hands off flight, ifa butterfly farts near you, it will knock the Piet out of trim flight !! :)Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: "Robert Gow"
All four Pietenpols I have flown (including my own) have their "flippers" deflected slightly downward in level flight. I think it may be a characteristic of the breed---at least with the original short fuselage version. Has anyone investigated this phenomenon with regard to the long fuselage Pietenpols?The Pietenpol airplanes are not alone in this respect; an examination of WW I airplane (eg. Sopwith Pup) in-flight photos will reveal the same characteristic. Since the Pietenpol design is essentially at the WW I level, it isn't surprising that Pietenpols also have sagging flippers in level flight.What causes this is likely more complicated than it might seem. My Pietenpol's nose will pitch down abruptly when I lift the access flap (the hinged rear portion of the center section) slightly. This suggests a disruption of the downwash from the wing, thereby reducing the download on the horizontal tail surfaces. The flippers, being hinged to the horizontal stabilizer, perhaps are being deflected downward by the downwash and, as Don Emch suggests, their own unbalanced weight. Could the upper wing of those old WW I biplanes could be creating a similar downwash situation? I dunno.Anyway, it is quite possible that aerodynamic factors are involved---especially if the C of G is within reasonable limits. An aft C of G location would certainly cause one to maintain a forward force on the stick, thus depressing the flippers a few degrees. The C of G of my Pietenpol is within safe operating limits and it tends to be nose heavy with the fuel tank (located just behind the firewall) more than half full. As a result, I keep it trimmed with the throttle, gradually reducing power as the fuel burns off.So, if aerodynamic factors are the cause---and in my case, I think they may be---I still am not sure how to cure the "sagging flipper syndrome". In any case, I don't think it is a serious matter because a lot of older designs fly just fine despite the condition. Therefore, I don't have much incentive to experiment with my airplane---particularly after nearly 36 enjoyable years flying it.Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN________________________________________________________________________________
All four Pietenpols I have flown (including my own) have their "flippers" deflected slightly downward in level flight. I think it may be a characteristic of the breed---at least with the original short fuselage version. Has anyone investigated this phenomenon with regard to the long fuselage Pietenpols?The Pietenpol airplanes are not alone in this respect; an examination of WW I airplane (eg. Sopwith Pup) in-flight photos will reveal the same characteristic. Since the Pietenpol design is essentially at the WW I level, it isn't surprising that Pietenpols also have sagging flippers in level flight.What causes this is likely more complicated than it might seem. My Pietenpol's nose will pitch down abruptly when I lift the access flap (the hinged rear portion of the center section) slightly. This suggests a disruption of the downwash from the wing, thereby reducing the download on the horizontal tail surfaces. The flippers, being hinged to the horizontal stabilizer, perhaps are being deflected downward by the downwash and, as Don Emch suggests, their own unbalanced weight. Could the upper wing of those old WW I biplanes could be creating a similar downwash situation? I dunno.Anyway, it is quite possible that aerodynamic factors are involved---especially if the C of G is within reasonable limits. An aft C of G location would certainly cause one to maintain a forward force on the stick, thus depressing the flippers a few degrees. The C of G of my Pietenpol is within safe operating limits and it tends to be nose heavy with the fuel tank (located just behind the firewall) more than half full. As a result, I keep it trimmed with the throttle, gradually reducing power as the fuel burns off.So, if aerodynamic factors are the cause---and in my case, I think they may be---I still am not sure how to cure the "sagging flipper syndrome". In any case, I don't think it is a serious matter because a lot of older designs fly just fine despite the condition. Therefore, I don't have much incentive to experiment with my airplane---particularly after nearly 36 enjoyable years flying it.Graham Hansen Pietenpol CF-AUN________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By:
RE: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: "Jack T. Textor"
RE: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By:
Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level>From Page 3 of the first BPA newsletter of July 1983: "You may have noticed some pictures of Pietenpols flying with the elevator hanging downward a bit and you may have heard all sorts of reasons forit being so, including that it is tail heavy and you've got to try to compensate.Forrest Lovely, a name familiar to most Pietenpol fans, who has owned a number of them and who has been flying them since he was sixteen, kindly gaveus a good explanation of the condition which we will share with you. He says theelevators should hang down. With the plane rigged so that the stick is neutral for a particular pilot weight the elevator should hang down 1/2" to 3/4".Since the stabilizer is fixed this means that the tail is carrying some of the load and providing lift. So there you have it. Keep in mind the C.G. of theAir Camper should be a maximum of 20" behind the leading edge of the wing. That's 33%."________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Flippers slightly down when straight & level>From Page 3 of the first BPA newsletter of July 1983: "You may have noticed some pictures of Pietenpols flying with the elevator hanging downward a bit and you may have heard all sorts of reasons forit being so, including that it is tail heavy and you've got to try to compensate.Forrest Lovely, a name familiar to most Pietenpol fans, who has owned a number of them and who has been flying them since he was sixteen, kindly gaveus a good explanation of the condition which we will share with you. He says theelevators should hang down. With the plane rigged so that the stick is neutral for a particular pilot weight the elevator should hang down 1/2" to 3/4".Since the stabilizer is fixed this means that the tail is carrying some of the load and providing lift. So there you have it. Keep in mind the C.G. of theAir Camper should be a maximum of 20" behind the leading edge of the wing. That's 33%."________________________________________________________________________________