Original Posted By: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also be a"GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman,sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'mtrying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/datawith the AirCamper in this regard. Regards,GeneRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By:> "GeneWeber"
To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?As an engineer, I would be concerned about the difference in moduli of elasticitywhen using two quite different materials such as aluminum and wood. I wouldreally like to see your spar design and calculations.Mike HardawayPS: for those who don't know, pairing up materials of different elasticity canallow the stiffer material to absorb most of the stress when the composite structureis loaded. A composite structure has to be carefully designed to benefitfrom the combined properties of the two materials.---- Amsafetyc(at)aol.com wrote: > > I am working on using a combined aluminum and wood wing spar sandwich design.My research indicates a weight and stress advantage with the sandwich design.Has anyone else considered that design alteration?> > Would be interested in your thoughts!> > John> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message-----
To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?As an engineer, I would be concerned about the difference in moduli of elasticitywhen using two quite different materials such as aluminum and wood. I wouldreally like to see your spar design and calculations.Mike HardawayPS: for those who don't know, pairing up materials of different elasticity canallow the stiffer material to absorb most of the stress when the composite structureis loaded. A composite structure has to be carefully designed to benefitfrom the combined properties of the two materials.---- Amsafetyc(at)aol.com wrote: > > I am working on using a combined aluminum and wood wing spar sandwich design.My research indicates a weight and stress advantage with the sandwich design.Has anyone else considered that design alteration?> > Would be interested in your thoughts!> > John> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: "baileys"
Hi Folks,Seems like almost everything under the sun has been tried regarding the AirCamper.I'm curious if anyone has used an aluminum wing on one? If so, does anyoneknow how the weight of the aluminum wing compared to a wooden one?Thanks,Gene WeberRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hi Folks,Seems like almost everything under the sun has been tried regarding the AirCamper.I'm curious if anyone has used an aluminum wing on one? If so, does anyoneknow how the weight of the aluminum wing compared to a wooden one?Thanks,Gene WeberRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: GeneWeber
IMHO a properly built up aluminum spar would be lighter, stronger and cheaper than certified aircraft quality spruce.Aluminum ribs would be very easy to fabricate. If one covered the D section with aluminum it would be very rigid.don't know about the overall cost, but it would probably save a lot of time. I imagine that most Pietenpol fans would consider it pure heresy. If I did build one that way I don't believe I would call ot a Pietenpol.Just the musings of an old fool, Bob B. ----- Original Message -----
IMHO a properly built up aluminum spar would be lighter, stronger and cheaper than certified aircraft quality spruce.Aluminum ribs would be very easy to fabricate. If one covered the D section with aluminum it would be very rigid.don't know about the overall cost, but it would probably save a lot of time. I imagine that most Pietenpol fans would consider it pure heresy. If I did build one that way I don't believe I would call ot a Pietenpol.Just the musings of an old fool, Bob B. ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: baileys
perhaps call it a :TunaCamper?AlumaPete?PietenSpam?DJ Veghveghdesign.comMesa, AZ 602.743.5768"Where there's a will there's a Vegh"- ----- Original Message -----
perhaps call it a :TunaCamper?AlumaPete?PietenSpam?DJ Veghveghdesign.comMesa, AZ 602.743.5768"Where there's a will there's a Vegh"- ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: Amsafetyc(at)aol.com
Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also be a"GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman,sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'mtrying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/datawith the AirCamper in this regard. Regards,GeneRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also be a"GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman,sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'mtrying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/datawith the AirCamper in this regard. Regards,GeneRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: "GeneWeber"
I am working on using a combined aluminum and wood wing spar sandwich design. Myresearch indicates a weight and stress advantage with the sandwich design. Hasanyone else considered that design alteration?Would be interested in your thoughts!JohnSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message-----
I am working on using a combined aluminum and wood wing spar sandwich design. Myresearch indicates a weight and stress advantage with the sandwich design. Hasanyone else considered that design alteration?Would be interested in your thoughts!JohnSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message-----
> Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By:
Hi JohnI'm sure you could come up with a aluminium wood sandwich spar that is stronger and lighter than just wood. The question is what you would use to bond it together with and how you would deal with the different coefficents of expansion particularly with large temperature changes over time. How would it be possible to inspect this bond.Just my thoughts.Steve in Maine>From: Amsafetyc(at)aol.com>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?>Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:32:40 +0000>>>I am working on using a combined aluminum and wood wing spar sandwich >design. My research indicates a weight and stress advantage with the >sandwich design. Has anyone else considered that design alteration?>>Would be interested in your thoughts!>>John>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry>>-----Original Message----->From: "GeneWeber" >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:38:52>To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?>>>Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also >be a "GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink]>>Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane >craftsman, sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum >wing. I'm trying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real >experience/data with the AirCamper in this regard.>>Regards,>>Gene>>>Read this topic online here:>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __Mortgage refinance is hot 1) Rates near 30-yr lows 2) Good credit get intro-rate 4.625%* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?produc ... ______Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:24:07 -0800
Hi JohnI'm sure you could come up with a aluminium wood sandwich spar that is stronger and lighter than just wood. The question is what you would use to bond it together with and how you would deal with the different coefficents of expansion particularly with large temperature changes over time. How would it be possible to inspect this bond.Just my thoughts.Steve in Maine>From: Amsafetyc(at)aol.com>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?>Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:32:40 +0000>>>I am working on using a combined aluminum and wood wing spar sandwich >design. My research indicates a weight and stress advantage with the >sandwich design. Has anyone else considered that design alteration?>>Would be interested in your thoughts!>>John>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry>>-----Original Message----->From: "GeneWeber" >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 13:38:52>To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?>>>Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also >be a "GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink]>>Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane >craftsman, sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum >wing. I'm trying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real >experience/data with the AirCamper in this regard.>>Regards,>>Gene>>>Read this topic online here:>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __Mortgage refinance is hot 1) Rates near 30-yr lows 2) Good credit get intro-rate 4.625%* https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?produc ... ______Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:24:07 -0800
Original Posted By:
Still in research and evaluation. Awaiting engineering stress analysis of sparfor dynamic loading of the structure in addition to torsion evaluation as a majorengineering concern in stress application. The rates of expansion due to thermalchanges should not be that dramatic as to creating an issue affecting abond. I am considering a full width fastner backed up with a capable adhesive.Considering a 3M product. All issues remain up in the air till stress analysisis completeJohnSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message-----
Still in research and evaluation. Awaiting engineering stress analysis of sparfor dynamic loading of the structure in addition to torsion evaluation as a majorengineering concern in stress application. The rates of expansion due to thermalchanges should not be that dramatic as to creating an issue affecting abond. I am considering a full width fastner backed up with a capable adhesive.Considering a 3M product. All issues remain up in the air till stress analysisis completeJohnSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: Clif Dawson
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?Sorry guys, but being an old world low and slow airplane builder, my eyes are beginning to glaze over.Me thinks you should switch to one of those high-tech lists. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:29:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?Sorry guys, but being an old world low and slow airplane builder, my eyes are beginning to glaze over.Me thinks you should switch to one of those high-tech lists. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:29:45 -0700
Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: John B Franklin Jr
Perhaps 15 years ago, I built a sample Pietenpol wing rib from .020" 2024 T3 aluminum alloy angles as a design study. It was relatively easy to fabricate, and took less time than making a standard Pietenpol rib. I never pursued the concept and gave it to a friend who still has it.The plan was to use wooden spars with aluminum ribs, leading edge skin and trailing edge in much the same way the wings of a Cub, Taylorcraft or Aeronca were built. It was felt that some weight could be saved by doing so. In any case, I would like to see someone try this approach; it won't be me because, as BHP used to say, "I've had too many birthdays!".If one could find extruded aluminum spars similar to those used on Piper airplanes, an all-metal wing structure could be had (fabric-covered, of course). Using blank Cub type spar extrusions would require changing the airfoil section, and this likely wouldn't be acceptable to Pietenpol lovers (myself included). I don't know if any weight could be saved by using metal spars, somebody out there will likely check this out.It would be virtually impossible to save weight in the "tail feathers" by going to metal. The wooden empennage is just about as light as it is possible to make it, and there is no advantage in abandoning the standard wooden version. I built a steel tubing fuselage years ago and sold it to a fellow who finished the airplane. The tail surfaces were of steel tubing with light steel channel ribs. While the basic fuselage structure was lighter than the wooden one, there wasn't much difference by the time the seat supports, brackets for controls, etc. were added. Nevertheless, the completed airplane flew well and its empty weight was about average for the type.I don't think it would be inappropriate for someone to design an all-metal wing structure, provided the appearance of the Pietenpol airplane isn't compromised too much. An alternative to scarce and expensive aircraft quality spruce would be beneficial, in my humble opinion.Go for it!Graham Hansen [Pietenpol CF-AUN (wood structure) in Alberta, Canada]________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:22:01 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Perhaps 15 years ago, I built a sample Pietenpol wing rib from .020" 2024 T3 aluminum alloy angles as a design study. It was relatively easy to fabricate, and took less time than making a standard Pietenpol rib. I never pursued the concept and gave it to a friend who still has it.The plan was to use wooden spars with aluminum ribs, leading edge skin and trailing edge in much the same way the wings of a Cub, Taylorcraft or Aeronca were built. It was felt that some weight could be saved by doing so. In any case, I would like to see someone try this approach; it won't be me because, as BHP used to say, "I've had too many birthdays!".If one could find extruded aluminum spars similar to those used on Piper airplanes, an all-metal wing structure could be had (fabric-covered, of course). Using blank Cub type spar extrusions would require changing the airfoil section, and this likely wouldn't be acceptable to Pietenpol lovers (myself included). I don't know if any weight could be saved by using metal spars, somebody out there will likely check this out.It would be virtually impossible to save weight in the "tail feathers" by going to metal. The wooden empennage is just about as light as it is possible to make it, and there is no advantage in abandoning the standard wooden version. I built a steel tubing fuselage years ago and sold it to a fellow who finished the airplane. The tail surfaces were of steel tubing with light steel channel ribs. While the basic fuselage structure was lighter than the wooden one, there wasn't much difference by the time the seat supports, brackets for controls, etc. were added. Nevertheless, the completed airplane flew well and its empty weight was about average for the type.I don't think it would be inappropriate for someone to design an all-metal wing structure, provided the appearance of the Pietenpol airplane isn't compromised too much. An alternative to scarce and expensive aircraft quality spruce would be beneficial, in my humble opinion.Go for it!Graham Hansen [Pietenpol CF-AUN (wood structure) in Alberta, Canada]________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:22:01 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: "Graham Hansen"
I vaguely recall, I believe, it was Bill Rewey who told me that someone oncebuilt a Pietenpol wing using aluminum spars.When it flew it was difficult to control because aileron deflection caused the wing to warp.Just a bit of "food for thought".Roman Bukolt NX20795----- Original Message -----
I vaguely recall, I believe, it was Bill Rewey who told me that someone oncebuilt a Pietenpol wing using aluminum spars.When it flew it was difficult to control because aileron deflection caused the wing to warp.Just a bit of "food for thought".Roman Bukolt NX20795----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Magneto tools
Original Posted By: "John B Franklin Jr"
Thanks John I've been lookin for that tool for some time. Never used this company before.----- Original Message -----
Thanks John I've been lookin for that tool for some time. Never used this company before.----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By:
I really don't know if it'll ever air in the USA. You realize that Vimy was before the US entered the war. So its not part of US history. The History Television channel in Canada is owned by a company in Georgia. So I would imagine that if enough people sent an email to them they might show it in the US. On another note. it was great to finally see the show in its finished product. The scene of the camera/spotter getting in was quite funny in real life. The last time we talked about it. He (Capt. Roeder, Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry) and myself joking that the director wasn't going to cut that scene. He really didn't want his ass broadcast on National Television. Once I trained him on how to get in. It was much easier the second time. When they were looking for an appropriate aircraft to use. It was very hard to find any WW1 aircraft in actual flying condition that could be available in the prairies in November. In the actual battle, an Airo DH2 would have been spotting. But I don't believe any are flying in the world. There is one at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa and apparently at a museum in London. For the majority of the public. The Pietenpol looks the part quite well. The entire process of being involved in the production was both educational and enlightening. There are only 2 Canadian WW1 veterans still alive. (106 & 107 years old) And its films like this that will make us remember the monumental victory and great sacrifice of these young men. Fighting so far away from home. 'Lest we forget'________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:18:51 -0400
I really don't know if it'll ever air in the USA. You realize that Vimy was before the US entered the war. So its not part of US history. The History Television channel in Canada is owned by a company in Georgia. So I would imagine that if enough people sent an email to them they might show it in the US. On another note. it was great to finally see the show in its finished product. The scene of the camera/spotter getting in was quite funny in real life. The last time we talked about it. He (Capt. Roeder, Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry) and myself joking that the director wasn't going to cut that scene. He really didn't want his ass broadcast on National Television. Once I trained him on how to get in. It was much easier the second time. When they were looking for an appropriate aircraft to use. It was very hard to find any WW1 aircraft in actual flying condition that could be available in the prairies in November. In the actual battle, an Airo DH2 would have been spotting. But I don't believe any are flying in the world. There is one at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa and apparently at a museum in London. For the majority of the public. The Pietenpol looks the part quite well. The entire process of being involved in the production was both educational and enlightening. There are only 2 Canadian WW1 veterans still alive. (106 & 107 years old) And its films like this that will make us remember the monumental victory and great sacrifice of these young men. Fighting so far away from home. 'Lest we forget'________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing?Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:18:51 -0400
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: Amsafetyc(at)aol.com
> To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?> > > Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also bea "GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] > > Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman,sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'mtrying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/datawith the AirCamper in this regard. > > Regards,> > Gene> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 262#103262> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
> To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?> > > Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also bea "GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] > > Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman,sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'mtrying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/datawith the AirCamper in this regard. > > Regards,> > Gene> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 262#103262> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
> Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?
Original Posted By: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
> To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?> > > Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also bea "GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] > > Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman,sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'mtrying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/datawith the AirCamper in this regard. > > Regards,> > Gene> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 262#103262> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
> To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing?> > > Hmmm, if the aluminum is highly polished instead of painted it could also bea "GlareCamper". Or should that be "GlairCamper"? [Wink] > > Yes, from what I've read, and from a discussion with a "seasoned" airplane craftsman,sounds like there could be a weight advantage to an aluminum wing. I'mtrying to "think light". It would be great if someone had real experience/datawith the AirCamper in this regard. > > Regards,> > Gene> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 262#103262> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________