Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gapIn a message dated 3/27/2007 4:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsury(at)consolidated.net writes:Chuck Are you talking about a T-150 tool for checking the e-gap? I've been looking to purchase one of them tools and was not able to find out who sells them. Checked with Aircraft Spruce and they wanted to sell me the electronic tool for setting the timing. Would appreciate if you have an address of the supplier.I don't think the e-gap setting is gonna imporve the static rpm. I have onemag that I broke the case on and had to replace it. So now I need to set thee-gap. What is happening to me is that the mag is not up to full change when it fires. On mag check the engine runs rough on that mag. Not knowing how toset it I just let the points open just as soon as they could which isn't right. Thanks Jim SuryJim, Yes, the T-150 tool is the one I am talking about. My curiosity was howmany other folks actually set the e-gap. I have a need for the tool, because after about 300 hrs of service, I removed the points in the Left mag, to have a close look at if there was any burning on the contacts...there was none. Here's how a magneto works: A strong magnet mounted on the shaft, spins within a two part coil, thathas windings that are electrically connected on one leg of the circuit, via the points. As the magnet swaps ends within the two part coil, a current races back and forth in a millisecond, between these two windings. The faster it spins, the higher the current. The purpose of the points is to interrupt this current flow when it is at it's peak...which is called the 'e-gap'. The e stands for 'energy'. You DO NOT adjust the points to a specific gap, you DOadjust the points to crack open at the very instant when this current is at it's peak. It is a very narrow margin, and if it is more than 5 =BA off, it willhave a great impact on how much current and voltage goes to the plugs. When the points crack open, the current will flow to the path of least resistance, which is through the distributor and wires, to the spark plugs. The purpose of the Impulse Coupling is two fold: 1) it catches on a cog, and collects Spring energy and when it releases it the timing is retarded for easier engine start ; 2) it spins the magnet at a much higher rate. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force acts upon two spring loaded weights, which does not allow the cogs to catch. When you shut down the engine, as it slows down to below about 100 RPM (maybe 200 rpm) or so, you hear the cogs catching, and spinning the magnet at the faster rate. Now...All I need is a T-150 toolChuck G.NX770CG************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap
Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap
Original Posted By: "Jim Sury"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gapIn a message dated 3/27/2007 4:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsury(at)consolidated.net writes:Chuck Are you talking about a T-150 tool for checking the e-gap? I've been looking to purchase one of them tools and was not able to find out whosells them. Checked with Aircraft Spruce and they wanted to sell me the electronic toolfor setting the timing. Would appreciate if you have an address of thesupplier. I don't think the e-gap setting is gonna imporve the static rpm. I haveone mag that I broke the case on and had to replace it. So now I need to setthe e-gap. What is happening to me is that the mag is not up to full changewhen it fires. On mag check the engine runs rough on that mag. Not knowing howto set it I just let the points open just as soon as they could which isn'tright. Thanks Jim SuryJim, Yes, the T-150 tool is the one I am talking about. My curiosity washow many other folks actually set the e-gap. I have a need for the tool,because after about 300 hrs of service, I removed the points in the Left mag, tohave a close look at if there was any burning on the contacts...there was none. Here's how a magneto works: A strong magnet mounted on the shaft, spins within a two part coil,that has windings that are electrically connected on one leg of the circuit, via the points. As the magnet swaps ends within the two part coil, a currentraces back and forth in a millisecond, between these two windings. The faster it spins, the higher the current. The purpose of the points is to interruptthis current flow when it is at it's peak...which is called the 'e-gap'. The estands for 'energy'. You DO NOT adjust the points to a specific gap, youDO adjust the points to crack open at the very instant when this current is atit's peak. It is a very narrow margin, and if it is more than 5 off, it will have a great impact on how much current and voltage goes to the plugs. When the points crack open, the current will flow to the path of least resistance, which is through the distributor and wires, to the spark plugs. Thepurpose of the Impulse Coupling is two fold: 1) it catches on a cog, and collectsSpring energy and when it releases it the timing is retarded for easier enginestart ; 2) it spins the magnet at a much higher rate. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force acts upon two spring loaded weights, which does not allowthe cogs to catch. When you shut down the engine, as it slows down to belowabout 100 RPM (maybe 200 rpm) or so, you hear the cogs catching, and spinning the magnet at the faster rate. Now...All I need is a T-150 toolChuck G.NX770CG************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.--------------------------------------------------------------------mail2web.com - Microsoft Exchange solutions from a leading provider -http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Excha ... __________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gapIn a message dated 3/27/2007 4:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jimsury(at)consolidated.net writes:Chuck Are you talking about a T-150 tool for checking the e-gap? I've been looking to purchase one of them tools and was not able to find out whosells them. Checked with Aircraft Spruce and they wanted to sell me the electronic toolfor setting the timing. Would appreciate if you have an address of thesupplier. I don't think the e-gap setting is gonna imporve the static rpm. I haveone mag that I broke the case on and had to replace it. So now I need to setthe e-gap. What is happening to me is that the mag is not up to full changewhen it fires. On mag check the engine runs rough on that mag. Not knowing howto set it I just let the points open just as soon as they could which isn'tright. Thanks Jim SuryJim, Yes, the T-150 tool is the one I am talking about. My curiosity washow many other folks actually set the e-gap. I have a need for the tool,because after about 300 hrs of service, I removed the points in the Left mag, tohave a close look at if there was any burning on the contacts...there was none. Here's how a magneto works: A strong magnet mounted on the shaft, spins within a two part coil,that has windings that are electrically connected on one leg of the circuit, via the points. As the magnet swaps ends within the two part coil, a currentraces back and forth in a millisecond, between these two windings. The faster it spins, the higher the current. The purpose of the points is to interruptthis current flow when it is at it's peak...which is called the 'e-gap'. The estands for 'energy'. You DO NOT adjust the points to a specific gap, youDO adjust the points to crack open at the very instant when this current is atit's peak. It is a very narrow margin, and if it is more than 5 off, it will have a great impact on how much current and voltage goes to the plugs. When the points crack open, the current will flow to the path of least resistance, which is through the distributor and wires, to the spark plugs. Thepurpose of the Impulse Coupling is two fold: 1) it catches on a cog, and collectsSpring energy and when it releases it the timing is retarded for easier enginestart ; 2) it spins the magnet at a much higher rate. Once the engine is running, centrifugal force acts upon two spring loaded weights, which does not allowthe cogs to catch. When you shut down the engine, as it slows down to belowabout 100 RPM (maybe 200 rpm) or so, you hear the cogs catching, and spinning the magnet at the faster rate. Now...All I need is a T-150 toolChuck G.NX770CG************************************** See what's free athttp://www.aol.com.--------------------------------------------------------------------mail2web.com - Microsoft Exchange solutions from a leading provider -http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Excha ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Magneto tools
Original Posted By: "bike.mike"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Magneto toolsIn a message dated 3/27/2007 8:23:55 PM Central Daylight Time, jbfjr(at)peoplepc.com writes:Jim,Sacramento Sky Ranch has several tools for working on mags including a T150, here's the link:http://www.sacskyranch.com/acatalog/Sac ... 52.htmlSee you Saturday!John F.Thanks, John !! That's what I was looking for, too !!Chuck G.************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Magneto toolsIn a message dated 3/27/2007 8:23:55 PM Central Daylight Time, jbfjr(at)peoplepc.com writes:Jim,Sacramento Sky Ranch has several tools for working on mags including a T150, here's the link:http://www.sacskyranch.com/acatalog/Sac ... 52.htmlSee you Saturday!John F.Thanks, John !! That's what I was looking for, too !!Chuck G.************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
Original Posted By: "GeneWeber"
This runs a little long, so be forewarned.It isn't a diatribe, but an apology.Here in the United States, FARs were long ago written that enabled licensingand standardization of "Experimental" Aircraft. The purpose was, andremains officially, for "education." In the intervening years, the ruleshave been used to justify a lot of people building airplanes that achievesomething that they otherwise could not achieve, whether it is performance,a replica of an historic airplane, or having any airplane at all. Otherpeople have used the rules to become educated. (Had the rules existed inthe 1920s, Bernard Pietenpol would have achieved his phenomenalself-education in aircraft design within them.)Folks on this list come from each of those motivations.Some, call them "type A", want to have a replica of a great series ofairplanes, the Pietenpol Aircamper. Type A's consider that only veryaccurate replicas can legitimately bear the name of the original. Theseaircraft only have materials and engines (Model A, Corvair) and airfoilsthat were originally experimented with by BHP himself. The most extremeexamples use casein glue and muslin fabric.Others, type B, want to have an airplane that looks mostly like a famousoriginal, yet benefits from part of the 80 years of advances in airplanesthat have happened since Bernard started flying off his farm. Type B's usesomewhat more modern engines, Continental, Franklin, etc. and use epoxy,Dacron, some even having electrical systems and tail wheels. Mike C, Corky,Jack Phillips, and others are prime examples of fine type B airplanebuilders who didn't build exact replicas of Bernard's original. I try tofall somewhere between type A and type B.Still others, type C, are on this list for an education. They want to learnwhat it is like to actually build an airplane, and the Pietenpol looks likea nice, simple, place to start. Type C's also want to relive some of whatBernard did in his experimenting and building days. Bernard certainly didn't build his original airplanes exactly to someone else's plans; he had toeducate himself as he went along. Type C's want to earn some of thateducation as well.In 80 years, aviation has advanced far, far, beyond what any of the earlyexperimenters saw, or probably imagined. Airframe materials have gone frombamboo and paper to spruce and muslin to aluminum alloys to composites.Engines have gone from unreliable motorcycle derivatives with apower-to-weight ratio of .05 to turbines that achieve ratios of nearly 20and have actual TBO's measured in decades. The achievable private airplanehas evolved from a Piet capable of 80 mph to a turbine powered Lancair thatcan do way over 300.Type C listers want to learn a little of what drove all that progress. Theywant the joy of changing this or that and learning how everything elsechanges. They want to know what drove changing biplanes to monoplanes, andstrutted high wings to cantilevered low wings. Type C members of this listactually achieve what was intended with the original Experimental AircraftFAR's: education and they get much closer to the essence of BernardPietenpol than any of the rest of us.I hope that those type C's I've chided about building a Piet in order tobuild a Piet will accept this as an apology. You are who I would aspire tobe if I had the courage.Mike Hardaway________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
This runs a little long, so be forewarned.It isn't a diatribe, but an apology.Here in the United States, FARs were long ago written that enabled licensingand standardization of "Experimental" Aircraft. The purpose was, andremains officially, for "education." In the intervening years, the ruleshave been used to justify a lot of people building airplanes that achievesomething that they otherwise could not achieve, whether it is performance,a replica of an historic airplane, or having any airplane at all. Otherpeople have used the rules to become educated. (Had the rules existed inthe 1920s, Bernard Pietenpol would have achieved his phenomenalself-education in aircraft design within them.)Folks on this list come from each of those motivations.Some, call them "type A", want to have a replica of a great series ofairplanes, the Pietenpol Aircamper. Type A's consider that only veryaccurate replicas can legitimately bear the name of the original. Theseaircraft only have materials and engines (Model A, Corvair) and airfoilsthat were originally experimented with by BHP himself. The most extremeexamples use casein glue and muslin fabric.Others, type B, want to have an airplane that looks mostly like a famousoriginal, yet benefits from part of the 80 years of advances in airplanesthat have happened since Bernard started flying off his farm. Type B's usesomewhat more modern engines, Continental, Franklin, etc. and use epoxy,Dacron, some even having electrical systems and tail wheels. Mike C, Corky,Jack Phillips, and others are prime examples of fine type B airplanebuilders who didn't build exact replicas of Bernard's original. I try tofall somewhere between type A and type B.Still others, type C, are on this list for an education. They want to learnwhat it is like to actually build an airplane, and the Pietenpol looks likea nice, simple, place to start. Type C's also want to relive some of whatBernard did in his experimenting and building days. Bernard certainly didn't build his original airplanes exactly to someone else's plans; he had toeducate himself as he went along. Type C's want to earn some of thateducation as well.In 80 years, aviation has advanced far, far, beyond what any of the earlyexperimenters saw, or probably imagined. Airframe materials have gone frombamboo and paper to spruce and muslin to aluminum alloys to composites.Engines have gone from unreliable motorcycle derivatives with apower-to-weight ratio of .05 to turbines that achieve ratios of nearly 20and have actual TBO's measured in decades. The achievable private airplanehas evolved from a Piet capable of 80 mph to a turbine powered Lancair thatcan do way over 300.Type C listers want to learn a little of what drove all that progress. Theywant the joy of changing this or that and learning how everything elsechanges. They want to know what drove changing biplanes to monoplanes, andstrutted high wings to cantilevered low wings. Type C members of this listactually achieve what was intended with the original Experimental AircraftFAR's: education and they get much closer to the essence of BernardPietenpol than any of the rest of us.I hope that those type C's I've chided about building a Piet in order tobuild a Piet will accept this as an apology. You are who I would aspire tobe if I had the courage.Mike Hardaway________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? Re: Apology
Original Posted By:
Hi Mike,Nice post, thanks. Honestly, the worst possible thing that can happen when youpost a question on a forum is that no one finds it interesting enough to respond.While at one point I was a bit surprised by the seemingly negative tone ofsome of the responses, I genuinely appreciate that so many people shared an opinion.I'd love to see some AirCampers. On the Corvair website there was mention of a"Corvair Wings and Wheels fly-in at Alliance, Ohio" on June 8th, 9th, and 10th.Not close, but doable for me. Is this something that some of you might attend?Last, I really love some features of this forum like the down-loadable archives. But I'm curious what causes the divergence of threads? Many times when I see Mike Cuy respond for example, his response is a new thread. I'm using the web forum at http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7 not email. Perhaps if people are using email and give their reply a new subject it creates a new thread? This question spawned about 10 threads which made it a little tough to follow.Best Regards,GeneRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? Re: ApologyDate: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:13:31 -0400
Hi Mike,Nice post, thanks. Honestly, the worst possible thing that can happen when youpost a question on a forum is that no one finds it interesting enough to respond.While at one point I was a bit surprised by the seemingly negative tone ofsome of the responses, I genuinely appreciate that so many people shared an opinion.I'd love to see some AirCampers. On the Corvair website there was mention of a"Corvair Wings and Wheels fly-in at Alliance, Ohio" on June 8th, 9th, and 10th.Not close, but doable for me. Is this something that some of you might attend?Last, I really love some features of this forum like the down-loadable archives. But I'm curious what causes the divergence of threads? Many times when I see Mike Cuy respond for example, his response is a new thread. I'm using the web forum at http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7 not email. Perhaps if people are using email and give their reply a new subject it creates a new thread? This question spawned about 10 threads which made it a little tough to follow.Best Regards,GeneRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Wing? Re: ApologyDate: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 08:13:31 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gapNot sure if I can give a good tech explanation why but.........the magpoints really don't completely close, like old distributors on cars. Oldtimer AP's used to use a piece of cigarette film, about 0.001", to set thepoints where they are almost closed, and then set the open gap using anormal point gapping set of blades. You can almost eyeball the "closed"gap. If you allow the points to come all the way closed, the mag won'thave a chance to build enough spark. Experimental aircraft--- you gottalove it as a learning experience.GordonOriginal Message:-----------------
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gapNot sure if I can give a good tech explanation why but.........the magpoints really don't completely close, like old distributors on cars. Oldtimer AP's used to use a piece of cigarette film, about 0.001", to set thepoints where they are almost closed, and then set the open gap using anormal point gapping set of blades. You can almost eyeball the "closed"gap. If you allow the points to come all the way closed, the mag won'thave a chance to build enough spark. Experimental aircraft--- you gottalove it as a learning experience.GordonOriginal Message:-----------------
Re: Pietenpol-List: How a Magneto works : e-gap
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
ChuckThanks for the explanation Chuck. I knew that but was not able to put it into words that made any sense. Got that Mike Cuy. The T-118 pins are used to lock the mag into position when you install the mag to the engine. You are suppose to be able to put the crank at the 18 deg btdc or where ever you want it to fire and just drop the mag in and it is suppose to be in time. It gets it close but I still use the sinc. light. Low and SlowPietenpol GN-1Jim Sury----- Original Message -----
ChuckThanks for the explanation Chuck. I knew that but was not able to put it into words that made any sense. Got that Mike Cuy. The T-118 pins are used to lock the mag into position when you install the mag to the engine. You are suppose to be able to put the crank at the 18 deg btdc or where ever you want it to fire and just drop the mag in and it is suppose to be in time. It gets it close but I still use the sinc. light. Low and SlowPietenpol GN-1Jim Sury----- Original Message -----