Original Posted By: "Rick Holland"
Pietenpol-List: Engine question......
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question......
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question......
Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question......In a message dated 9/3/2007 11:41:21 AM Central Daylight Time, kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com writes:Forgive me for sticking my neck out.....just curious how many other applications of engines have been tried in the pietenpol? With Continental andLycoming prices on the rise, just wondering if other applications have been used (outside of the Model A also)?The 'Pietenpol Aircamper' has had a wider variety of engines installed in this airframe, than any other aircraft in history. Direct drive, long stroke engines that swing a big prop work best.Chuck G.NX770CGhttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question......In a message dated 9/3/2007 11:41:21 AM Central Daylight Time, kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com writes:Forgive me for sticking my neck out.....just curious how many other applications of engines have been tried in the pietenpol? With Continental andLycoming prices on the rise, just wondering if other applications have been used (outside of the Model A also)?The 'Pietenpol Aircamper' has had a wider variety of engines installed in this airframe, than any other aircraft in history. Direct drive, long stroke engines that swing a big prop work best.Chuck G.NX770CGhttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question......
Original Posted By: "Rob Stapleton, Jr."
Some of the fellows in the rotary world have been working on a 1/2 Mazda 13Bengine to fit LSA category AC. That is a single rotor Wankel made out of aMazda RX7 13B rotary. Estimated power at 100 hp and complete weight under200lbs. Don't know if any have flown yet but it looks promising as you canuse the more inexpensive Hirth redirve instead of the more costly RWS unit.Off the shelf components such as shortened E-shaft (crank) Peripheral portrotor housing and aluminum end housing are available from the rotary racingsuppliers. The fellow in the attached pictures cooked up his own singlerotor Wankel out of junkyard parts. Should make for a nice set up for anAircamper.michael in maine________________________________________________________________________________
Some of the fellows in the rotary world have been working on a 1/2 Mazda 13Bengine to fit LSA category AC. That is a single rotor Wankel made out of aMazda RX7 13B rotary. Estimated power at 100 hp and complete weight under200lbs. Don't know if any have flown yet but it looks promising as you canuse the more inexpensive Hirth redirve instead of the more costly RWS unit.Off the shelf components such as shortened E-shaft (crank) Peripheral portrotor housing and aluminum end housing are available from the rotary racingsuppliers. The fellow in the attached pictures cooked up his own singlerotor Wankel out of junkyard parts. Should make for a nice set up for anAircamper.michael in maine________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Engine question......
Original Posted By:
Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine questionSeveral years a guy in Alabama was flying a Piet with a Chevy 4 cyl.from an S-10. It later crashed for reasons not the fault of the engine.I'm still waiting for him to come foreward with all the details. (goodthing I'm not holding my breath) If you missed the Model A forum atBrodhead, we learned about an automotive engineer who has re designedthe model A engine to modern standards and is planning to have itproduced in China for about 3K if he can get enough interest. for aproduction run. E-mail him and tell him you'll take a dozen!modelaengine.com Leon S. in Ks. who hasn't touched the Piet yet thisyear.________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine questionSeveral years a guy in Alabama was flying a Piet with a Chevy 4 cyl.from an S-10. It later crashed for reasons not the fault of the engine.I'm still waiting for him to come foreward with all the details. (goodthing I'm not holding my breath) If you missed the Model A forum atBrodhead, we learned about an automotive engineer who has re designedthe model A engine to modern standards and is planning to have itproduced in China for about 3K if he can get enough interest. for aproduction run. E-mail him and tell him you'll take a dozen!modelaengine.com Leon S. in Ks. who hasn't touched the Piet yet thisyear.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: "James Dallas"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine questionWhat changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and redrive.Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range?I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is greatlyappreciated!Johnhttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine questionWhat changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and redrive.Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range?I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is greatlyappreciated!Johnhttp://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour________________________________________________________________________________
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: "Max Hegler"
John, The big change would be in the cam profile. You need to find an automotive machinist that knows cams and can grind a profile for the torque/RPM range that you want. The bad thing is more than likely the horsepower will be considerably lower than the stock engine trying to get the peak torque at say 2600 RPM.Jim Dallas>From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:44:22 EDT>>What changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp>out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much>rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and >redrive.>>Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max>rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range?>>I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I>already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is >greatly>appreciated!>>John>>>http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30t ... __________
John, The big change would be in the cam profile. You need to find an automotive machinist that knows cams and can grind a profile for the torque/RPM range that you want. The bad thing is more than likely the horsepower will be considerably lower than the stock engine trying to get the peak torque at say 2600 RPM.Jim Dallas>From: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com>Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:44:22 EDT>>What changes would one have to make to an engine to get the majority of hp>out at a lower rpm, rather than making it a 6500 rpm screamer? I would much>rather improve the low rpm output if possible than go full rpm and >redrive.>>Any suggestions on building a low rpm high output engine suggesting a max>rpm in the 2500 to 3500 range?>>I would really like to use the ford 2.0 L OHC metric engine (Pinto) I>already have in stock if at all possible! Any info on building that is >greatly>appreciated!>>John>>>http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30t ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Has anyone checked this one out? http://www.donovanengineering.com/Block ... ock.htmlIn my "wild about car" days, Donovan engines were about the best.I have asked for information but it hasn't arrived yet.Max ----- Original Message -----
Has anyone checked this one out? http://www.donovanengineering.com/Block ... ock.htmlIn my "wild about car" days, Donovan engines were about the best.I have asked for information but it hasn't arrived yet.Max ----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
A good rule of thumb is RPM x displacement (in cubic inches) =F7 5,250 willget you close to what you can expect from HP.So as an example, your 2000cc (122 cubes) @ 3,250 RPM could net upwards of75 ponies. If you need to turn it slower, say 2,750 RPM then HP drops to 59.So if you increase the cubes by bore and stroke (if that=92s possible) youcould gain a few ponies back. You can also pick a little more power byincreasing the compression ratio and by playing with the timing. Cam grind can help too if you can find such a cam. Most cams made for littlemotors are to help the engine spin faster. Do you know of a stock torquecurve graph that=92s out there for this engine?The good thing about trying to find extra power with an auto conversion isthe lack of a need for =93drivability=94. You pretty much have three throttlepositions, wide open, cruise, and pattern and not any start-and-stop drivinglike with a car.But with direct drive you have to concern yourself with the crank. A PSRUcan isolate the crank from all the gyroscopic concerns imposed by the prop(in addition to thrust), and in many cases, offer some sort of torsionalvibration damping. Pat _____
A good rule of thumb is RPM x displacement (in cubic inches) =F7 5,250 willget you close to what you can expect from HP.So as an example, your 2000cc (122 cubes) @ 3,250 RPM could net upwards of75 ponies. If you need to turn it slower, say 2,750 RPM then HP drops to 59.So if you increase the cubes by bore and stroke (if that=92s possible) youcould gain a few ponies back. You can also pick a little more power byincreasing the compression ratio and by playing with the timing. Cam grind can help too if you can find such a cam. Most cams made for littlemotors are to help the engine spin faster. Do you know of a stock torquecurve graph that=92s out there for this engine?The good thing about trying to find extra power with an auto conversion isthe lack of a need for =93drivability=94. You pretty much have three throttlepositions, wide open, cruise, and pattern and not any start-and-stop drivinglike with a car.But with direct drive you have to concern yourself with the crank. A PSRUcan isolate the crank from all the gyroscopic concerns imposed by the prop(in addition to thrust), and in many cases, offer some sort of torsionalvibration damping. Pat _____
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Find an engine with the shortest stroke and largest diameter pistons. Torque turns the prop, not max. hp. Low rpm torque comes from short stroke and large diameter piston engines, ie. diesel engines and storebought aircraft engines. You can look until the next ice age, but you ain't gonna find too many cheap engines made for cars that meet the above torque requirements at low rpm. OR Option 1--- bite the bullet and buy engine designed for the job, like a Lycosaurus. Option 2--bite the bullet again and get a firewall forward system like the Subaru's modified, somewhat proven and for aircraft. Subarus still need a PRU, do to rpm needed to get torque. Benefit of Subarus is the fact the pistons are oppossed like VW or Corvair, thus they don't vibrate themselves to death at high rpms. Biggest problem with looking a alternate sources of power is waste of your time and money. I know it's called experimental, but the engine alternative experiment has been beaten to death by every type and sort of homebuilder and some spam cans with ie. 4.3L Chevy engines, or alumimum block ole Buick V-8's. There's tonnes of research and experiment documentation out there in internet-land for your consideration. The power systems that have worked and are working are well documented. Gordon ----- Original Message -----
Find an engine with the shortest stroke and largest diameter pistons. Torque turns the prop, not max. hp. Low rpm torque comes from short stroke and large diameter piston engines, ie. diesel engines and storebought aircraft engines. You can look until the next ice age, but you ain't gonna find too many cheap engines made for cars that meet the above torque requirements at low rpm. OR Option 1--- bite the bullet and buy engine designed for the job, like a Lycosaurus. Option 2--bite the bullet again and get a firewall forward system like the Subaru's modified, somewhat proven and for aircraft. Subarus still need a PRU, do to rpm needed to get torque. Benefit of Subarus is the fact the pistons are oppossed like VW or Corvair, thus they don't vibrate themselves to death at high rpms. Biggest problem with looking a alternate sources of power is waste of your time and money. I know it's called experimental, but the engine alternative experiment has been beaten to death by every type and sort of homebuilder and some spam cans with ie. 4.3L Chevy engines, or alumimum block ole Buick V-8's. There's tonnes of research and experiment documentation out there in internet-land for your consideration. The power systems that have worked and are working are well documented. Gordon ----- Original Message -----
Original Posted By: "BFD"
Well I wonder how the re-drive bug engine is holding up that gene what's his namein Missourri builds and also sells the drive unit for? I have a friend thatwants to buy one of his backyard flyer's with one of them on it pretty bad.butunless he sells his Tailwind for a pretty good price-I doubt he will.anotherbuddy is thinking along the same lines if he sells his Glassair.that's the fastestplane I ever got to fly for sure.but they are geting into the Light Sportmentality now instead of just wanting to go fast.I guess the grass is surelyallways greener on the other side of the runway.Don't know why one of those engineswould'nt power a Piet pretty well too and surely be lighter than a modelA or a Corvair.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Well I wonder how the re-drive bug engine is holding up that gene what's his namein Missourri builds and also sells the drive unit for? I have a friend thatwants to buy one of his backyard flyer's with one of them on it pretty bad.butunless he sells his Tailwind for a pretty good price-I doubt he will.anotherbuddy is thinking along the same lines if he sells his Glassair.that's the fastestplane I ever got to fly for sure.but they are geting into the Light Sportmentality now instead of just wanting to go fast.I guess the grass is surelyallways greener on the other side of the runway.Don't know why one of those engineswould'nt power a Piet pretty well too and surely be lighter than a modelA or a Corvair.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: "Gordon Bowen"
Thats a good one! lol Low rpm torque comes from short stroke and large diameter piston engines, ie. diesel engines and storebought aircraft engines. ________________________________________________________________________________
Thats a good one! lol Low rpm torque comes from short stroke and large diameter piston engines, ie. diesel engines and storebought aircraft engines. ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine question
Original Posted By: "skellytownflyer"
You could even do a direct drive Subaru as Ed Barros is doing on his highlymodified KR in Agentina.Cant get much simpler and afordable than that.http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/_____________ ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine question
You could even do a direct drive Subaru as Ed Barros is doing on his highlymodified KR in Agentina.Cant get much simpler and afordable than that.http://www.kr2-egb.com.ar/_____________ ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine question
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine question
Original Posted By: skellytownflyer
IMHO the bug engine at it's current level of development would be a good candidate as long as one didn't try and push it too hard. I belive the redrive you mention is one from Valley Engineering aka Culver Props.Father and Son team Gene and Larry Smith are the ones running the show http://www.culverprops.com/index.phpEven if you aren't interested in a bug engine it is an interesting site to browse. Also I belive they won an award for their Briggs & Stratton conversion at EAA. ----- Original Message -----
IMHO the bug engine at it's current level of development would be a good candidate as long as one didn't try and push it too hard. I belive the redrive you mention is one from Valley Engineering aka Culver Props.Father and Son team Gene and Larry Smith are the ones running the show http://www.culverprops.com/index.phpEven if you aren't interested in a bug engine it is an interesting site to browse. Also I belive they won an award for their Briggs & Stratton conversion at EAA. ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question
Original Posted By: BFD
BFD seems to have a tad of doubt, soooo. Here's an example for doubting BFD's. GM and Ford both made a 3.8l V-6 engine. Equal displacement but Ford engine has larger bore and shorter stroke to get same cubic inches as GM. Get a copy of the torque curve and ck it out yourself who has the highest torque at lowest RPM's. Ford and Chrysler (Cummings) both making approx same displacement diesel engine, the Cummings engine has larger bore and shorter stroke, look up the torque curve and see who has highest torque at lowest RPM.Gordon ----- Original Message -----
BFD seems to have a tad of doubt, soooo. Here's an example for doubting BFD's. GM and Ford both made a 3.8l V-6 engine. Equal displacement but Ford engine has larger bore and shorter stroke to get same cubic inches as GM. Get a copy of the torque curve and ck it out yourself who has the highest torque at lowest RPM's. Ford and Chrysler (Cummings) both making approx same displacement diesel engine, the Cummings engine has larger bore and shorter stroke, look up the torque curve and see who has highest torque at lowest RPM.Gordon ----- Original Message -----