Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:35 am

Original Posted By: "Owen Davies"
I'm dithering on how to do the aileron hinges. The two ways that I know ofare to weld the loops together on ordinary strap (gate) hinges, and to usepiano hinge sections. What experiences have you people had? Are there anyother possibilities that I've missed?Thanks,Gene HubbardSan Diego________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:02 am

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Hi Gene,I used piano hinges - the MS20001 type that are extruded sections, not thecheaper bent-over type. I know the barn-door hinges will work, but they areheavy and don't seal the gaps. Mike Cuy used Piano hinges as well.Jack -----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 11:43 am

Original Posted By: Michael D Cuy
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron HingesIn a message dated 2/6/02 7:38:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, ehubbard(at)titan.com writes:> I'm dithering on how to do the aileron hinges. The two ways that I know of> are to weld the loops together on ordinary strap (gate) hinges, and to use> piano hinge sections. What experiences have you people had? Are there any> other possibilities that I've missed?> > Thanks,> Gene Hubbard> San Diego> > > Gene,No need to weld the loops closed. The strap hinge works very well. There is no reason to change the design unless one just needs to find something. Doug Bryant________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 12:59:00 -0500

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 4:36 pm

Original Posted By: Kirk & Laura Huizenga

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 6:57 pm

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 8:50 pm

Original Posted By: "Jeffrey Wilcox"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron HingesIn a message dated 2/6/02 5:00:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, cayecaulker(at)justice.com writes:> Thanks! I used it. Very good site. So good, I posted the link on my > building workpage.> > The only curious thing is a year or more ago, message that said; they > used eye bolts instead of welding up those plan fittings, for the rudder > hinges.> > Now I constantly used galvanized eye bolts instead of bronze pintel and > gudgeons on sailboat, or slow motor boats, for the rudder fittings. They > do work. But I would like to know what the person who used them did, two > years ago?> > On boats, I run a long rod through the different eye bolts. Is that how > it is done on an airplane?> Vi Kapler sells the cast alum tail control surface hinges which are mentioned as a note on the tail page of the plans. They are very good quality and easy to install. I made my first set from steel as shown and spent more hours than on the entire landing gear; from then on I used the cast hinges. I think I have built eight tail groups, lost count, and I sure like the cast hinges. You might consider them.Doug Bryant Wichita Ks ________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:05 pm

Original Posted By: Hubbard, Eugene
I faavor the method of using a female threaded rod end on the aft wing spar,and a pair or reversed "L" pieces on the aileron spar. Neat, easy, andstrong as heck!CraigTC#4553----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:09 pm

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 10:26 pm

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye
I used the aluminum hinges from Vi Kapler. They are semi- finished, drilled and countersunk, but just need a bit of work with a file.They are more than worth the $45 for a set of 9 hinges in time saved alone. Contact Vi and see if he still supplies them.Vitalis Kapler1033 Forest Hill Dr. SWRochester, MN 5902Rod WoollerAustralia>From: Fisherman Caye >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges>Date: 6 Feb 2002 13:57:17 -0800 06 Feb 2002 13:57:17 PST>>>>>Sam and I were discussing this subject today. Mostly right now the rudder >hinges. Do they have to be as in the drawings, or have the many builders >beforehand, come up with something off the shelf better than welding up >stuff?>________________________________________________________________________________Date: 7 Feb 2002 04:53:37 -0800

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:03 am

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:06 am

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:10 am

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:42 am

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 10:22 am

Original Posted By: Jeffrey Wilcox [mailto:craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com]
Thanks Craig,How do you hold the threaded rod end to the wing spar? Do you put a straparound it or drill through the sleeve/threaded rod combo to leave studs oneach end? I think I understand the reversed "L" brackets. This moves thehinge line down somewhat, doesn't it? Is this a problem?Gene-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:25 pm

Original Posted By: JEFFREY WILCOX

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:28 pm

Original Posted By: JEFFREY WILCOX

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 1:25 pm

Original Posted By: JEFFREY WILCOX [mailto:craigwilcox(at)peoplepc.com]
Got it. Thanks!-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 4:11 pm

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 7:32 pm

Original Posted By: john e fay
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron HingesIn a message dated 2/7/02 5:06:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, cayecaulker(at)justice.com writes:> Doug> > I will consider them. Give me an address, price list, or e-mail, or > something to find out about?> > Right on! I am NOT going to weld those suckers up as in the plans. If I > can buy them, fine! If not, eye bolts and clevis pins will do it. Will be > at that stage late next week, I think. Working on the stabilizer now. The > hardware store had the right angle brackets and stainless steel screws to > fit. The brackets are galvanized though. Probably install vertical > stabilizer today, or Monday.> > I notice all aircraft metal fittings have this pretty green paint. The > hardware store had primer, but only in versions of brown. Guess I will > spray the brackets with brown. But where do you get the green paint? Is > that a standard spray can?> > Another question when covering rear fuselage hull, turtle deck and > stabilizer. I noticed two ways of doing it. One you run the cloth back > from the fuselage and around the stabilizer. It flares out of it's own > accord making streamlining. That is the route I plan to eventually take. > But Ted over at Naples on his Pietenpol, had the fabric stopped at the end > of the turtle deck and a separate layer of fabric on the stabilizer. It > looked like unnecessary wind resistance to me? Any opinions on this, or > other comments from those who have done it?> > I presume there are physical labor advantages to one way or the other?> > Ray> ===========================> > On Wed, 06 February 2002, Doug413(at)aol.com wrote:> > > > > > > In a message dated 2/6/02 5:00:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > cayecaulker(at)justice.com writes:> > > > > > > Thanks! I used it. Very good site. So good, I posted the link on my > > > building workpage.> > > > > > The only curious thing is a year or more ago, message that said; they > > > > used eye bolts instead of welding up those plan fittings, for the > rudder > > > hinges.> > > > > > Now I constantly used galvanized eye bolts instead of bronze pintel > and > > > gudgeons on sailboat, or slow motor boats, for the rudder fittings. > They > > > do work. But I would like to know what the person who used them did, > two > > > years ago?> > > > > > On boats, I run a long rod through the different eye bolts. Is that > how > > > it is done on an airplane?> > > > > > Ray,Here is the addres and phone for Vi.Vitalis Kapler, 1033 Forest Hill Dr. SW, Rochester, MN 5902.tel: 507 288 3322Vi sell the hinges two ways. One with the hardware and the other without.The green paint is probably Zinc Chromate. It is a primer for alum parts, not necessary for steel parts.Cover the turtle deck/fusalage separate from the horizontal stabilizer. Some steel tube aicraft (cubs) have the vertical as part of the fuselage. The Piet is not that way. Doug Bryant Wichita, Ks ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:50:20 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:24 am

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Much better than the spray zinc chromate primer is epoxy primer, such asPoly-Fiber or Randolph Epibond. Once cured the only way to remove it is bysandblasting. At about $30 a quart it ain't cheap, but it sure is good.Jack -----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:32 am

Original Posted By: del magsam

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:44 am

Original Posted By: "Fisherman Caye"
Any place you are going to attach fabric should have epoxy primer. Thefabric adhesive dissolves the zinc chromate and regular primer so that anysteel underneath will not be protected and will rust.Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, OshkoshEditor, EAA Safety Programscgalley(at)qcbc.org or experimenter(at)eaa.orgAlways looking for articles for the Experimenter----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:26 am

Original Posted By: John Hofmann
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 12:16 pm

Original Posted By: Fisherman Caye

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:20 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
You can find it in Aircraft Spruce and Specialties catalog, either fromStits Poly-Fiber (which I prefer) or Randolph. As I've said before, theAircraft Spruce catalog is free and should be on every homebuilder'sbookshelf, whether you buy from them or not. Their prices are not bad (foraircraft prices) and thir selection is fabulous. You will need many partsfrom them or Wicks Aircraft before you have gone much further with thisproject. -----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:40 pm

Original Posted By: Mike
We are trying to decide between strap hinges as shown on the plans or piano hinges.We went to a fameous Home stuff superstore and loked at the piano hinges,flimsly. The strap hinges looked ok, but were hot dip gavalinazed, can't weld.What is a Piet builder to do? Are there any sources for 3" strap hinges thatare not plated?Barry Davis________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:21:54 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Hinges

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:01 pm

Original Posted By: "Mike"
Barry,I second this. Just have 11 hours on my Piet, and very happy with the pianohinges. I too bought the strap "barn door" hinges, but just couldn't bringmyself to use them. Here is one of the very few changes I made from theoriginal plans.I did have a big concern to a fact that was brought up during an earlierdiscussion on this. that the long hinge would bind during normal wingdeflection. Where the wing is not flat but curved up at the tip during asteep turn. But up till now haven't run into that condition. I'm verysatisfied with the Pianos.walt----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:39 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Check out MS20001 aluminum piano hinges. They are very strong, lightweight, and will seal the gap between the ailerons and the wing.Jack -----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:33 pm

Original Posted By: "walter evans"
Walt,Are your hinges aluminum or steel?Alex Sloan----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:41 pm

Original Posted By: "Michael D Cuy"
Thanks Mike,One more question on landing gear. What wood did you use for the landinggear struts? Plans call for spruce. I am inclined to use ash.Ted----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:51 pm

Original Posted By: "Richard Navratril"
Dick,Where did you put the gauge? Does it interfere with the passenger gettingin and out? I would love to have a stearman type gauge.Ted----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:47 am

Original Posted By: "walter evans"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron HingesIn a message dated 4/22/03 2:44:07 PM Central Daylight Time, bed(at)mindspring.com writes: We are trying to decide between strap hinges as shown on the plans or piano hinges. We went to a fameous Home stuff superstore and loked at the piano hinges, flimsly. The strap hinges looked ok, but were hot dip gavalinazed, can't weld. What is a Piet builder to do? Are there any sources for 3" strap hinges that are not plated? Barry Davis >>Barry,I used the 3" barn door strap hinges on the ailerons. No welding required. Bend, drill, and pre-fit the hinges, before cutting the aileron free from the wing. Naturally, I replaced the aluminum pin with AN bolt that had enough shank length, cut off the threads, and drilled it for a split pin. I then put a 3" strip of edging tape along the gap, before paint. Worked well. Very good aileron response.Chuck GantzerNX770CG________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:24 pm

Original Posted By: "Alex Sloan"
Alex,Mine are aluminum from AS&S. Not the super duper forged ones just thecheaper aircraft type.If hinges from an outhouse is OK, I figure these are fine.Used similar on a Fisher, and they gave good service.walt----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:27 pm

Original Posted By: Barry Davis [mailto:bed(at)mindspring.com]
Barry,I chose the strap hinges over piano hinges because I felt they gave a muchmore solid attachment to the wooden spars. I just couldn't see putting anoff-center load on a 1/2 inch spar only 1/2 inch from the edge.I used fairly heavy (6 inch or so) strap hinges, probably from the samesupply emproium you looked at. I ground off the pins, welded the loopsshut, bent, and cut to length. My hinges were zinc-flashed, not hot-dipped.The advice I got was that with adequate ventilation, the zinc wasn't aproblem. I trusted my source, but not being up on the physiology, I'moffering this as narrative, not advice. In any case the zinc burned offeasily and left white powder on the nearby surfaces. Gene HubbardSan Diego-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:59 pm

Original Posted By: "Ted Brousseau"
Hi TedI mounted the guage as close to the rear right cabane strut as possible. Iam hoping it will be safe as for passangers. Next time I go to the hangarI'll take a picture and send it along. As soon as I find a petcock with NFthread it will do double duty as a sump drain.Aloso I used Doug fir for my gear struts.Dick----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:35 pm

Original Posted By: "Catdesigns"
Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. Opinions locally seem to be that the hole is not a problem. What has been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen allot of photos of single piece horns and that is allot more appealing to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for these, or is something thicker in order. -Scott Schreiber________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:22 am

Original Posted By: Scott Schreiber
Don't know if it's safe or not but the GN-1 plans show 0.090 4130 for the single piece aileron horn used in that design.Chris TracySacramento, CaWebsite at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:36 am

Original Posted By: "walt evans"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:37 am

Original Posted By: "Scott Schreiber"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron HingesIn a message dated 10/6/2007 10:40:13 PM Central Daylight Time, got22b(at)subarubrat.com writes:Trying to follow the plans, I found some 3 inch strap hinges. They all seem to come from the same company regardless of packaging. They are OK in that a AN3 clevis will fit in them and they are the right size. However they are pre-drilled and have a hole right accros the bend line. Opinions locally seem tobe that the hole is not a problem. What has been the practice? And lastly for aileron control horns, I have seen allot of photos of single piece horns and thatis allot more appealing to me than the hollow ones. Is .090 a decent thickness of steel for these, or is something thicker in order. -Scott SchreiberScott,I used the 3" strap hinges, but I don't recall that the hole is across the bend line. For the Pin, I cut an AN3 screw (that was long enough for the shankto go all the way through the hinge - no threads allowed in the hole) to the right length to have a washer under the cotter pin, and drilled the cotter pinhole. The plans built control horns are very good design, easy to build, light weight, and Strong._http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html_ (http://nx770cg.com/Wing.html) Chuck G.NX770CG________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:40 pm

Original Posted By: walt evans
I have some stainless piano hinge on hand, 1 1/2 inches total width, and it doesn't seem wide enough. Is this what has been used? -Scott ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:28 pm

Original Posted By: "walt evans"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:55 pm

Original Posted By: walt evans
My concern with the piano was that the bolts would all be on the inside edge and might limit movement. What sort of fasteners did you piano hinge users choose? -Scott ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:34 pm

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:31 am

Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:21 am

Original Posted By: "walt evans"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:28 am

Original Posted By: "Rick Holland"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:36 am

Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:49 am

Original Posted By: "Arden Adamson"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:02 am

Original Posted By: "Arden Adamson"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron HingesArden,Look in Mcmaster.com. They have everything in hinges. This is where I got mine (aluminum extruded).Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aileron HingesDate: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 10:19:38 -0500

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:56 am

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Aircraft Spruce sells the MS20257P5 hinge for $13.70 for 6' of the rolledhinge. They have the MS20001P6 extruded hinge for $72.00 for 6'. McMasterhas the mil spec extruded hinges (surprised me), but they are much moreexpensive than the Spruce price. They also have rolled hinges cheap, but Iwould rather spend a few extra bucks for the mil spec rolled ones fromSpruce instead of the unknown ones from McMaster.As far as rolled vs extruded, I would certainly go with rolled on the Piet.Mark Langford of KR-2S fame did a test on the rolled hinge and a 4" piecewas able to support 150 pounds. See his test about a quarter of the waydown at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/misc.html.Brian KrautEngineering Alternatives, Inc.www.engalt.com -----Original Message-----