Pietenpol-List: Plywood

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Sun Jan 25, 1998 2:59 pm

Original Posted By: "Warren D. Shoun"
Hi Richard: Ian's comments are right on in all respects.....especially withregard to the available instructional material from EAA for $150.00 andthe resale documentation. Having said that, Aircraft Spruce is in mybackyard and I have had several discussions with them ...and other localbuilders.....the big issue on certification is very much related toinsurance standards. Most suppliers buy the same high-grade BalticBirch multiply plywood from Finland that you can get from specialtysupply shops for tool & die and model makers. They then "certify" itand pay for the liability insurance in case there is a structuralfailure and your family accepts the business card from the friendlyProducts Liability lawyer at the end of the cemetery driveway. That the quality of this plywood is leagues above the $14.00 stuffis a major understatement. It is completely free of voids, knots andimperfections and is glued under up under a "heat treatment" type ofprocess. It is certified for uniform glue spreading and veneerthickness. I can refer you to an importer out here that has some of thebest "stuff" that you will ever see. HOWEVER, IT IS NOT CERTIFIED ANDIS NOT INSURED. Anderson International Trading, 1171 N. Tustin Avenue, Anaheim,Calif. 92807-1736 (714) 666-8183: 1-800-454-6270:http:///www.aitwood.com. Example: 1/8" 5 ply is $55.82 for a 61" X 61" sheet, plus aminimum $10.00 UPS shipping charge and will be cut exactly in half, withthe face grain or across as per your instructions. This really isbeautiful stuff. A 2" X 4" X 1/8" piece of lumberyard stuff can bebroken over my bench vice by hand. I had an extremely difficult timebreaking this stuff with a mallet. From my own research, this is the highest quality birch plywoodavailable. These folks have this material from ply 1/64" up to 12 ply15/64". ONCE AGAIN, IT IS NOT CERTIFIED. However, this is what I chose after making some in person, piece bypiece comparisons, with out regard to the cost. I know that I won't bekissing my butt good-bye because a material failure here. Hope this helps. Warren.________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Feb 22, 2000 1:36 pm

Original Posted By: Warren Shoun

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Feb 22, 2000 1:43 pm

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Carl, For what it's worth, I've been using Birch for all the gussetts, and will use Mahogany for all the places where the plywood will show! Mahogany sure is pretty stuff.Gary Meadows________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Feb 22, 2000 7:40 pm

Original Posted By: Chris A Tracy
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Feb 23, 2000 9:34 am

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Here are some more sourses for plywood,B&D International http://www.bd-international.com/Birch$42 per 61x61" sheet of 1/16Add $10 per order to orders less than $200Anderson Internationalhttp://www.aitwood.com/ultrathinplywood.htm birch$38 per 61x61" sheet of 1/16Add $10 per order to orders less than $200Riteco Supply713-896-6200 (no website yet)Importers of Hoop Pine plywood. Avail in 1/16 and 1/8" only.I just recieved a sample of the ply and it looks every bit as suitable asbirch,and cheaper too. TEAM uses this stuff exclusively.$38 per 61x61" sheet of 1/161/16 3x6 29.25 4x8 $48 3.4 oz per sqr1/8 4x8 $42 5.08 oz per square foot.I just ordered birch 1/16 from AIT since another builder is buying from themand we combinded purchases. Had that not been the case I would have gonefor the Hoop Pine.I used B&D for my piet about 4 years ago. Good to work with too.Aircraft Spruce only has 48x48" sheets.SteveE.________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jun 27, 2000 3:45 pm

Original Posted By: fishin
Subject: Pietenpol-List: PlywoodAs the new kid on the block I need someone who is building or has finished a piet to advise me as to the Plywood requirements. Would like to use 3/32 on the front fuse sides. Corky________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:27:51 -0500

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jun 27, 2000 4:43 pm

Original Posted By: fishin

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jun 27, 2000 4:56 pm

Original Posted By: Isablcorky(at)aol.com
05:56:19 PMWhat about buying archives????? Will they have those for sale?Mike BellColumbia, SC________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jun 27, 2000 5:08 pm

Original Posted By: Rcaprd(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PlywoodWhat I need is a list of how much to order by sizes for the entire airplane.________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Nov 09, 2000 5:44 pm

Original Posted By: "Rodger & Betty Childs"
We've got the plans and are getting the wood to start the Piet.What kind of plywood should we get for the rib gussets? 45 or 90 deg.? Wewill be sending of for wood tomorrow and need to know before we do so. Rebecca Smith (Pete's daughter)________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Nov 09, 2000 6:05 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
2 sheets of 1/16" 90 degree should get you well along.Steve E.-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Nov 09, 2000 6:21 pm

Original Posted By: Chris a Tracy
Rebecca,Considering where the plywood is to be used, for rib gussets,we went with the 90 deg birch variety of 1/16" thickness.RodgerPiet in progress________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:08:19 -0800Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:01 pm

Original Posted By: "Scott Schreiber"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood Group, I need to order plywood for a short fuselage Piet. Does anyone know off the top of their head what thicknesses and quantities? Ron************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:39 pm

Original Posted By: "Brian Kraut"
I just wanted to let everyone know that Boulter Plywood still has 1/16" (1.5 mm)exterior marine Okoume plywood on special for $23 for a 4x8 foot sheet. SinceI was going to use this to cover my leading edges, I was hoping to have itslit to 12" and rolled to cut down on the freight. Boulter said that it won'troll very well, so I asked how much to ship it flat and uncut. It was only $24to ship from their yard in Somerville, MA to me here in NW Indiana by UPS. I have a source for Okoume and Finnish birch over in South Bend, In, but the localsource would be more than what Boulter is charging including the shipping!I ordered a sheet, but at that price, probably should have ordered more.Richard Schreiberlmforge(at)earthlink.netWhy Wait? Move to EarthLink.________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:58 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
How did you get UPS to ship a flat 4' X 8' sheet?Brian KrautEngineering Alternatives, Inc.www.engalt.com -----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:04 pm

Original Posted By: "walt evans"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:12 pm

Original Posted By: Brian Kraut
I called Boulter customer service and according to them the uncut 4x8 it doesn'thave to go by freight line. They will crate it and ship it flat by UPS for $24.I was suprized too. As soon as the order arrives I'll let eveyone know ifit came in OK.Rick Schreiber----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:20 pm

Original Posted By: walt evans
Walt,That maybe what they are going to do. Either way will be fine for my needsRick Schreiber----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:15 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
UPS published max is 165" in length plus girth and max 108" long.Theoretically in a box an inch thick it would only be 145" and O.K.Aircraft Spruce says that the max size for sheet metal by UPS is 2' X 4' soI would like to know if they actually get it through.Brian KrautEngineering Alternatives, Inc.www.engalt.com -----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:43 pm

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:04 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Re: Pietenpol-List: This week's radio showThanks. The podcast feature is upand running now.Brian Krautwww.flighttimeradio.com-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:07 pm

Original Posted By: "jimd"
Hi,Did more reading about it, and found a Canadian helicopter wreck death that wasblamed on seat belt failure. What they said was it tested out to only 600 lbsbreaking force instead of the 1500 minimum it should have, and they said thenew ones were more like 2400lbs. They apparently have inspections of seat beltsevery year and compare the color to new to see how much they have faded, andsuggest replacement if they have faded by some amount (have some kind of colorchart).Anyway its probably a non-issue for most of the belts as they rarely are calledupon to save your life fortunately, and if a plane is in a hangar all the timeit probably won't have a lot of UV related degradation of the fabric.Am curious how people are anchoring the front seat's shoulder belts (assuming youhave shoulder belts), I currently don't have anything in place yet. Saw onthe westcoastpiet site a few odd attachments to flying wires, would like somethingother than that. Seems like you want the belts attached really well, howeveryou would also want to be sure that in a wreck, anything that moved (likethe wing, attached to those wires) couldn't transfer the force to your beltedbody. Think that was what the PFA rules about attaching the belts focused on.Another question.. saw that the two styles of 5pt harnesses being used for sprintcars were camlock and aircraft style. They said that everywhere but the USthe camlock was widely used, but in the US the aircraft style was still popular,however it was much harder to put on. Which I believe as I have been up ina Great Lakes that had that type (with a parachute and everything, we even didan outside loop.. rest of ride was fun, that loop wasn't.) Anyway it was hardto get all the parts in the right spot at the right time on the aircraft styleone, they said the camlock one let you kind of put each one in one at a time,so it was much easier to do. Anyone using the camlock type? Planned on gettingthe aircraft style till I thought about it a bit.Anyway, the point that was made about not using a seatbelt being the biggest problemis probably true. Can't remember flying with anyone that wouldn't or didn'tuse a belt, but I am sure they are out there. My wife told me she wanted meto put a bubble canopy on the plane as she not only wanted a belt, but a roof.JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plywood

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:31 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I would stay away from the 3003 for mounting brackets except for purelycosmetic items. 3003 is very weak compared with the other alloys. Probablyreal good for cowling bumps and other stuff that needs to be formed.Brian KrautEngineering Alternatives, Inc.www.engalt.com-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:55 pm

Original Posted By:> jimd
Jim,I was going to use aluminum roof flashing for my leading edge wraporiginally to save money, as I could get it locally for about 10 or 15dollars for a 10" wide roll. Then I started thinking about hanger rash,bird strikes, overly enthusiastic crowds at air shows and then decided togo with the plywood for more sturdiness. I checked prices at AircraftSpruce and choked, then saw that Wickes was even higher. I then found asupplier about 50 miles away, but they wanted over $50 for a 50x50 sheet of1/16" Finnish Birch plywood. That's not enough to do the leading edge withone sheet, so I would have to buy two. $50 delivered from Boulter soundedlike the best way to go.Rick Schreiber> [Original Message]

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:20 pm

Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22I'm dreaming of another piet... this one is going to be a bit oversize. I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.First off if you're a purist, this isn't going to sit well, my only excuse is that I have built and flown one to the plans (mostly)So hear goes...Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out so far.Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.I looked around at other parasol designs and there is the Baking Duce, and the Fairchild 22. What is cooking up in my mind is something like a F-22 with the pietenpol tail....Just wondering what you might think of it...Steve ELow and Slow Since 1929Pietenpol Aircampersteve(at)byu.edu________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:52:44 -0500

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:46 am

Original Posted By: Owen Davies
To:pietenpol-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22Jim, He can't. Ask any purist. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.----------------________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:39:16 -0500

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:53 am

Original Posted By: "James"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22Steve,Go for it. Just don't call it a Pietenpol! Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:27 am

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
oh god, he can call it whatever he wants. Jim T.-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:37 am

Original Posted By: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Steveee wrote->I'm dreaming of another piet... this one is going to be a bit oversize.>I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.Well, given that this is the Piet list, you're going to get opinions that are biasedtowards the Piet!>Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG>mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out so far.You're imagining something along the lines of Corky's NX31CC, the "Southern Comfort"(for those who desire/require a bit more room to stretch out).>Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing, putting a Tigre on hisPiet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the Tigre for power and weight,but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.>What is cooking up in my mind is something like a F-22 with the pietenpol tail....Now there you go making a Frankenstein out of two perfectly good airplanes ;o)If you want to take the time and effort to figure out how to make it all work,more power to ya but you'll be out there plowing new ground.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:46 am

Original Posted By: SSchof4277(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22Jim,He can't. Ask any purist. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:25 am

Original Posted By: AmsafetyC(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22Since I am 6'4" and 250lbs, I've been thinking about a larger "Piet" also. I love everything about the original Piet, except its size, and I just can't justify building something I know I'll never truly fit into. I figure that since I am about 20% larger (heavier) than Bernie, a "Piet" + 20% should be about right.I say go for it Steve-arino, and keep us posted as to your progress.**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:27 am

Original Posted By: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Can you define the sense of the term purist?JohnSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:51 am

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
SteveHave you seen the Italian Aerolab? Thats kind of what it sounds like you are describing. They make it in 3 different configurations. I like the low wing set up best. In my opinion which I have stated many times before is that if Bernard Pietenpol was still around today he would be trying all kinds of different ideas and would probably pull out some sketches he had done while you were describing your idea.Dick N.Dick N. ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:48 pm

Original Posted By: "jimd"
http://www.pietenpolclub.co.uk/default.htmYou might like above link. Its pretty cool.JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plywood

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:38 pm

Original Posted By: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Jim,You're planning to use .040" where .016" is called for?The leading edge wrap is approximately 9" wide (per Pietenpol plans) x 28feet long. That's about 21 square feet of area..016" aluminum weighs about .224 lb/sq.ft..040" aluminum weighs about .563 lb/sq.ft.1/16" plywood weighs around .25 lb/sq.ft (roughly the same as the .016"aluminum)So, based on the above data, the .016" aluminum or the 1/16" ply skin willweigh less than 5 pounds. The .040" aluminum skin will weigh almost 12pounds. This is all before nails. Do you really want an extra 7 pounds, withno real benefit?Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:40 pm

Original Posted By: "Brian Kraut"
Will probably go plywood. Have to get some I guess. Need to watch weight whereI can.JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:35 pm

Original Posted By: "jimd"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Better name for "big" pietWide flyers never die, the just get bigger pieters builtthe borrowed theme of an old truckers sayingJohn In a message dated 1/31/2008 2:20:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Isablcorky(at)aol.com writes:How bout something we olders dream about " Bigger Pieters "Nathan____________________________________ Start the year off right. _Easy ways to stay in shape_ (http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... 0000002489) in the new year. (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exer ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Plywood

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:16 pm

Original Posted By: "Scott Schreiber"
About the .040, I had a couple reasons to use it. First it was available reasonablypriced. Second, my upper wing is .024, while .016 was called for and it isa bit too flimsy, but should be out of way (except maybe for birds..) so .040seemed stiffer. The only benefit to it would be I think it would be less likely to dent then .024or .016. However think the nicest looking leading edges have been wood, with wood the coefficientof expansion is close to the rest of the wood in the wing, so it canall be glued together to make a solid unit. So I will look for wood for the lowerwing.Not going to redo the upper though, so the question is, what is the best way todeal with the nails? Saw in the old glider manual a suggestion to put solderon them (course they were talking the old acid core, and were also looking atrecovering their planes every couple years.) Cloth tape will cover it, but soundslike nails work there way up. Anyone tried epoxy or anything like that (maybesoaking the cloth tape?) Will ask folks at the Stewart Sytems class this weekend.Appreciate the common sense, sometimes I deviate from it a wee bit.JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:57 pm

Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Oh, so you saying the rib itself bowed in not the fabric pulled away from the 2x 1/16 rib cap. I have the braces per plan and it is glued full length of the uprights so I can't imagine that happening. My concern was the end of the wing being open or the fabric covering it. I went ahead and covered it but with the openings for the spars and cable it dosen't seem like it would do much if the 2 inch strips didn't hold. -Scott----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:13 pm

Original Posted By: Owen Davies

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:20 pm

Original Posted By: jimisown(at)aol.com

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:52 pm

Original Posted By: Owen Davies

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:28 pm

Original Posted By: "Ken Chambers"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:29 pm

Original Posted By: "gcardinal"
Well my plywood came in today from Boulter. It was cut into 4 -12" x 8 foot stripswhich is exactly what I wanted. The 1 foot strips were cleanly cut and verynicely packaged. They also included another strip of thicker plywood for support.I am very pleased with the quality of the wood and the shipping. Boulter Plywood still is listing this as a special price. They originally had 2100 sheets, but I don't know how much they have left. For those interested, here is their web site link http://www.boulterplywood.com/.They also carry birch aircraft plywood.Rick SchreiberValparaiso, IN________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:36 pm

Original Posted By: "Owen Davies"
Try this.......http://www.gm.com/explore/technology/gm ... s.jsp----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:25 pm

Original Posted By: amsafetyc(at)aol.com

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:26 pm

Original Posted By: Owen Davies

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:34 am

Original Posted By: "Bill Church"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:39 am

Original Posted By: Jim Courtney

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:25 pm

Original Posted By: ALAN LYSCARS
Al,I only bought the 1/16" ply from Boulter to use on my wing leading edge. I purchaseda 4'x8' sheet cut into 4 - 1'x 8' pieces. If the Okume from boulter wouldhave been available a few years ago, I would have used it for my gussets andto sheet my inboard ribs. If you are just starting building and are buildinga 3 piece wing, I think I would order 2- 4x8 foot sheets. Have them slit one into4 - 1'x 8' pieces for the leading edge and have the other 4x8 foot sheet cutinto 2-4x4 foot pieces or 4 2x4 foot pieces if the shipping is too much.Rick SchreiberValparaiso, IN----- Original Message -----