Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Jack et al.,Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and experience that will help me answer them.Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet may be from a Cub.My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do side loads become an issue?Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be unscrewed?I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree.Thanks,Jeff________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds
RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
Mike,-The overall-load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that -it can carry obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the lower tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area-than steel, with the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry the same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference will be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the aluminum one.If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fittings out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). My main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load, provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that cross-sectional area is practical is another question.Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being as strong as its weakest link.-Bill C.
Mike,-The overall-load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that -it can carry obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the lower tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area-than steel, with the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry the same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference will be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the aluminum one.If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fittings out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). My main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load, provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that cross-sectional area is practical is another question.Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being as strong as its weakest link.-Bill C.
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig weldsJim,You can go to Mr. Swaim's web sight _www.tigdepot.net_ (http://www.tigdepot.net) and ask him the question directly about the need (or not) for normalizing thin tube tig welds. I have read in numerous reliable places thatit is NOT necessary. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig weldsJim,You can go to Mr. Swaim's web sight _www.tigdepot.net_ (http://www.tigdepot.net) and ask him the question directly about the need (or not) for normalizing thin tube tig welds. I have read in numerous reliable places thatit is NOT necessary. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsThe small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimum of a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it.They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you an ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with someone looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from someone who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hours of frustrating trial and error.All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want to do on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the onesyou want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn out then accept the mediocre results as good enough.Regards, ChrissiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details=====If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gonepublic yet? I'd like to read it.One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing after TIG welding.People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/timeratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to alsoenjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I can do it.If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, butit might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little Lincoln machines. Jim Ash-----Original Message----->From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops>>Bill,> >I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WELL >worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and >practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you have >instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world and >you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too was >an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I >agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 square >wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff. >BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also. >>Dan Helsper>Poplar Grove, IL.>>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, >no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! >http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod endsDate: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:44:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsThe small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimum of a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it.They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you an ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with someone looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from someone who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hours of frustrating trial and error.All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want to do on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the onesyou want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn out then accept the mediocre results as good enough.Regards, ChrissiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details=====If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ashcan(at)earthlink.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gonepublic yet? I'd like to read it.One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing after TIG welding.People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/timeratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to alsoenjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I can do it.If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, butit might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little Lincoln machines. Jim Ash-----Original Message----->From: HelsperSew(at)aol.com>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops>>Bill,> >I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WELL >worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and >practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you have >instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world and >you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too was >an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I >agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 square >wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff. >BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also. >>Dan Helsper>Poplar Grove, IL.>>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, >no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! >http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod endsDate: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:44:54 -0400
Pietenpol-List: Normalizing thin tube tig welds
Original Posted By: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
JimWe Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I don't think you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on an engine mount. We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark and bring the entire joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it cool by itself.Good luckJerry GroganPrairie City, IA________________________________________________________________________________
JimWe Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I don't think you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on an engine mount. We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark and bring the entire joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it cool by itself.Good luckJerry GroganPrairie City, IA________________________________________________________________________________
Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
Original Posted By: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsAKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly head.If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious entry level welders. In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening, I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary. The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting(it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever.Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a call, they know what EAAers need.Regards, Chrissi & RandiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details==============================If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, owen5819(at)comcast.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies Jim Ash wrote:> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along by then, and he's likely to know.Owen**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsAKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly head.If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious entry level welders. In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening, I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary. The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting(it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever.Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a call, they know what EAAers need.Regards, Chrissi & RandiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details==============================If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, owen5819(at)comcast.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies Jim Ash wrote:> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along by then, and he's likely to know.Owen**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________
Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
Original Posted By: CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsChrissy,Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!! Drat!!! OH well.................. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsChrissy,Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!! Drat!!! OH well.................. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________
Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsDan, The water cooled head is nice but unless you do a lot of high amp long duty cycle welding you can wait awhile, get a heavier glove =)The best news is you bought a darn good welder to begin with. Go Red! We own three Lincoln welders.Regards, ChrissiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details==============================If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 6:17:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, HelsperSew(at)aol.com writes:Chrissy,Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!! Drat!!! OH well.................. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.____________________________________ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. _Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!_ (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsDan, The water cooled head is nice but unless you do a lot of high amp long duty cycle welding you can wait awhile, get a heavier glove =)The best news is you bought a darn good welder to begin with. Go Red! We own three Lincoln welders.Regards, ChrissiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details==============================If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 6:17:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, HelsperSew(at)aol.com writes:Chrissy,Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!! Drat!!! OH well.................. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.____________________________________ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. _Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!_ (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
> Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
> Pietenpol-List: Normalizing thin tube tig welds
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
Re: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Original Posted By: Owen Davies
I think we need some clarification of what's involved withdetermining the actual strength of the part.There are four areas in question on this fitting. What hasto be determined is which area is the smallest. That'sgoing to be the weakest therefore the one that determinesif the part is strong enough. This "part" is made up of twopieces, the shank and the base that's welded or bolted tothe strut.As you can see in pic 1 there are four "areas" involved.D1 is the solid portion of the threaded shank, D2 is theshank bit between the threads and head, which may besmaller than D1, A is the area of the head cross sectionthat holds the ball and the thread area is the cross sectionarea of the threads themseves.If either the shank or base is stronger than the other, ieone is steel and the other aluminum, then the weaker isthe determining strength.In pic 3 area 1 is that at the base of the threads of eitheror both base and shank. Area two is 1/2 way up the thread.In pic 5 the base material is the stronger. therefore thethreads will strip off the shank.In pic 6 both base and shank are the same material andstrength so will most likely shear half way up the threads.If either D2 or A are smaller in area than the thread areathat you've calculated then one other consideration willcome into play when the thing is in place on the planeand you fiddle with it to make adjustments. If you have toscrew the shank out of the base then at some point thethreaded portion will become the weak link regardlessof your initial calculations.Myself, I have four large, robust fork ends that will fit overthe standard plates sticking out the Jenny style LG fittings. http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/pr ... id=9039Now you have to get out the ol' calculator and do your ownarithmatic. :-)Clif"You are never given a dream without also being given the power to make it true. You may have to work for it, however."~ Richard Bach Mike, The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional (in square inches). Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being as strong as its weakest link. Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:18:23 -0400
I think we need some clarification of what's involved withdetermining the actual strength of the part.There are four areas in question on this fitting. What hasto be determined is which area is the smallest. That'sgoing to be the weakest therefore the one that determinesif the part is strong enough. This "part" is made up of twopieces, the shank and the base that's welded or bolted tothe strut.As you can see in pic 1 there are four "areas" involved.D1 is the solid portion of the threaded shank, D2 is theshank bit between the threads and head, which may besmaller than D1, A is the area of the head cross sectionthat holds the ball and the thread area is the cross sectionarea of the threads themseves.If either the shank or base is stronger than the other, ieone is steel and the other aluminum, then the weaker isthe determining strength.In pic 3 area 1 is that at the base of the threads of eitheror both base and shank. Area two is 1/2 way up the thread.In pic 5 the base material is the stronger. therefore thethreads will strip off the shank.In pic 6 both base and shank are the same material andstrength so will most likely shear half way up the threads.If either D2 or A are smaller in area than the thread areathat you've calculated then one other consideration willcome into play when the thing is in place on the planeand you fiddle with it to make adjustments. If you have toscrew the shank out of the base then at some point thethreaded portion will become the weak link regardlessof your initial calculations.Myself, I have four large, robust fork ends that will fit overthe standard plates sticking out the Jenny style LG fittings. http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/pr ... id=9039Now you have to get out the ol' calculator and do your ownarithmatic. :-)Clif"You are never given a dream without also being given the power to make it true. You may have to work for it, however."~ Richard Bach Mike, The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional (in square inches). Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being as strong as its weakest link. Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:18:23 -0400
Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
Original Posted By: charles loomis
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsSorry Owen, I meant that to be tongue in cheek but I think it came out too emphatic. And thank you for the additional reference site too.We have seen people usually have a strong preference for Red or Blue, I have found in a round about way that most people whose first experience with welding was in school are Blue people because Blue makes schools an offer thatRed cannot compete with, its that simple, in almost any application people prefer the tools they were taught with; good marketing. I agree that good research is important before any major purchase. Sort of like plasma cutters, after investigating what was the best for our needs we decided we cannot afford it (yet)(and its not Red), there was just no sense inbuying anything less.This is truly like learning to play a piano; the concept is simple enough but to master it takes years of practice, you can do it well if you take a class and practice a lot.Regards, ChrissiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details==============================If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 9:21:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, owen5819(at)comcast.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com wrote:> AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its > ugly head.Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net.Owen**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshopsSorry Owen, I meant that to be tongue in cheek but I think it came out too emphatic. And thank you for the additional reference site too.We have seen people usually have a strong preference for Red or Blue, I have found in a round about way that most people whose first experience with welding was in school are Blue people because Blue makes schools an offer thatRed cannot compete with, its that simple, in almost any application people prefer the tools they were taught with; good marketing. I agree that good research is important before any major purchase. Sort of like plasma cutters, after investigating what was the best for our needs we decided we cannot afford it (yet)(and its not Red), there was just no sense inbuying anything less.This is truly like learning to play a piano; the concept is simple enough but to master it takes years of practice, you can do it well if you take a class and practice a lot.Regards, ChrissiCG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardwarewww.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turboPlans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details==============================If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us.Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 9:21:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, owen5819(at)comcast.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies CozyGirrrl(at)aol.com wrote:> AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its > ugly head.Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net.Owen**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?n ... av00000001)________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Jeff,The following may supply your answer (from "Mechanic's Toolbox,www.sacskyranch.com):"If you are using "high strength" bolts in tension (pulling the boltlengthwise) then one needs a "high strength" nut to prevent stripping of thenut threads.Good Design Practice is to have a sufficiently strong nut so that the firstfailure is a broken bolt and not a stripped thread. A broken bolt isrelatively easy to notice and replace. A stripped thread occurs at the firstthread where the stress is highest and progresses along the thread leadingto complete failure. The bolt may remain in place unnoticed in a weakenedstate.When the bolt is in tension the threads are in shear. To meet the aboverequirement the nut's shear strength should be equal to the bolts shearstrength (same material).Sometimes this is not possible, such as when threading into a tapped holeand this is where Thread Engagement Length becomes important. More engagedthreads mean more shear stress area to take the load. So our second GoodDesign Practice is that the "length of engagement should be long enough thatthread failure will not occur before the bolt breaks."Generally, bolts can only withstand half as much shear as tension. Thismeans that the thread shear area needs to be at least double the bolt'stensile stress area. Minimum Engagement Length is then the length ofengagement that the shear area is twice the bolts tensile stress area.Length of Engagement works up to a point. At some point more engagementdoesn't increase shear strength because shear stress is not evenlydistributed in the nut. The first threads take most of the load. Addingextra engagement may not significantly increase the load capacity."As you probably know, when using a threaded rod & tube, you would measureback .75"-1" and drill a "sight hole" in the tube. This way you know thatyour threaded rod is at least as deep as the sight hole.Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)(12 ribs down.)-----Original Message-----
Jeff,The following may supply your answer (from "Mechanic's Toolbox,www.sacskyranch.com):"If you are using "high strength" bolts in tension (pulling the boltlengthwise) then one needs a "high strength" nut to prevent stripping of thenut threads.Good Design Practice is to have a sufficiently strong nut so that the firstfailure is a broken bolt and not a stripped thread. A broken bolt isrelatively easy to notice and replace. A stripped thread occurs at the firstthread where the stress is highest and progresses along the thread leadingto complete failure. The bolt may remain in place unnoticed in a weakenedstate.When the bolt is in tension the threads are in shear. To meet the aboverequirement the nut's shear strength should be equal to the bolts shearstrength (same material).Sometimes this is not possible, such as when threading into a tapped holeand this is where Thread Engagement Length becomes important. More engagedthreads mean more shear stress area to take the load. So our second GoodDesign Practice is that the "length of engagement should be long enough thatthread failure will not occur before the bolt breaks."Generally, bolts can only withstand half as much shear as tension. Thismeans that the thread shear area needs to be at least double the bolt'stensile stress area. Minimum Engagement Length is then the length ofengagement that the shear area is twice the bolts tensile stress area.Length of Engagement works up to a point. At some point more engagementdoesn't increase shear strength because shear stress is not evenlydistributed in the nut. The first threads take most of the load. Addingextra engagement may not significantly increase the load capacity."As you probably know, when using a threaded rod & tube, you would measureback .75"-1" and drill a "sight hole" in the tube. This way you know thatyour threaded rod is at least as deep as the sight hole.Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)(12 ribs down.)-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Original Posted By: Jim Ash
Pietenpol-List: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds
Original Posted By: HelsperSew(at)aol.com
Read this article.Normalizing is not necessary.http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/sportair/If normalizing is not done correctly it can be hazardous.--------Brady McCormickPoulsbo, WAwww.magnificentmachine.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Read this article.Normalizing is not necessary.http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/sportair/If normalizing is not done correctly it can be hazardous.--------Brady McCormickPoulsbo, WAwww.magnificentmachine.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
> > Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
> > > While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any> experience with any of those kits that will convert your> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.> > Jim Ash> > -----Original Message-----> >From: Owen Davies > >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops> >> > >> >Jim Ash wrote:> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.> Maybe next April.> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They> both are supposed to > >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal> Arc 185TSW in > >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low> end, where we > >would be working. Can't verify that from> experience, as I keep trying to > >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get> there.> >> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and> ask Ernie > >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better> model might come along > >by then, and he's likely to know.> >> >Owen> >> >> >> >> >> > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________________________________________________________
> > > While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any> experience with any of those kits that will convert your> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.> > Jim Ash> > -----Original Message-----> >From: Owen Davies > >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops> >> > >> >Jim Ash wrote:> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.> Maybe next April.> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They> both are supposed to > >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal> Arc 185TSW in > >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low> end, where we > >would be working. Can't verify that from> experience, as I keep trying to > >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get> there.> >> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and> ask Ernie > >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better> model might come along > >by then, and he's likely to know.> >> >Owen> >> >> >> >> >> > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________________________________________________________
>> > Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
Original Posted By: lshutks(at)webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
>> >> >> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any>> experience with any of those kits that will convert your>> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the>> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more>> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.>> >> Jim Ash>> >> -----Original Message----->> >From: Owen Davies >> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM>> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:>> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops>> >>> >> >>> >Jim Ash wrote:>> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.>> Maybe next April.>> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They>> both are supposed to >> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal>> Arc 185TSW in >> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low>> end, where we >> >would be working. Can't verify that from>> experience, as I keep trying to >> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get>> there.>> >>> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and>> ask Ernie >> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better>> model might come along >> >by then, and he's likely to know.>> >>> >Owen>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>>> >>________________________________________________________________________________
>> >> >> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any>> experience with any of those kits that will convert your>> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the>> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more>> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.>> >> Jim Ash>> >> -----Original Message----->> >From: Owen Davies >> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM>> >To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:>> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops>> >>> >> >>> >Jim Ash wrote:>> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.>> Maybe next April.>> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They>> both are supposed to >> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal>> Arc 185TSW in >> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low>> end, where we >> >would be working. Can't verify that from>> experience, as I keep trying to >> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get>> there.>> >>> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and>> ask Ernie >> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better>> model might come along >> >by then, and he's likely to know.>> >>> >Owen>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>>> >>________________________________________________________________________________