Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
It sounds to me like it might be time for a scientific test. Lay up two woodentest frames of a statistically-significant size (say maybe 2 ft. square apiece),cover both using the same fabric, and then finish one with the Poly-Fiberprocess and the other with the Fisher latex house paint method (as detailed inStevee's notes on Westcoastpiet).When completely cured, cut both test sections out of their frames and put themon a digital scale and compare the weight. Multiply the difference by the approximatenumber of yards of fabric used in a Piet project, and we will then knowhow much difference there is in weight.I was quite surprised to see that John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's) "MountainPiet" also wears latex house paint. It's a beauty.I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his time and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the "Noon Patrol"... the squadron of 13 Nieuport replicas that flew into the history books a few years ago as a remarkable group project. Pictures and story at http://eaa292.org/noonpatrol_hi-res.htmlOscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re: Spar Varnish
Original Posted By: "Richard Schreiber"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re: Spar VarnishI too would love to see the entire process thoroughly explained and in detail for start to finish. Of late I have completed the wood work on my tail section and while waiting for my spar material to come in I thought I would startthe sanding and coating process of the tail assemblies so bot the spar and coating discussions are timely for me. I would like to use house paint but want to make sure that the preparation though the final paint is detailed and understood. Changing or removing or destroying the finish or the fabric is notsomething I would like to do after using the wrong varnish, process or step progression. Can someone clarify the process, step by step material by material so I too know what to purchase, how much and how to apply it for the best results. Based upon yesterdays discussion I have probably looked at, at least a dozen different coating and varnishes and still have nothing to base a decision on.I would love to see a concensus for the collective wisdom on the ultimate coating and coloring system from an availability, cost and ease of applicationperspective.As usual I appreciate and value your input, this entire issue has gotten rather confusing for me.Thanks John Recine In a message dated 11/25/2008 8:11:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flywrite(at)verizon.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden Gosh, I'm almost sorry I asked!
Or maybe I just didn't ask enough questions. I'll start over: I'm using the medium-weight heat- shrinkable fabric from AS. I don't plan to follow anybody's proprietary processes. What I want to do is protect the wood with a sealant (varnish) and then apply a "glue" to attach the fabric to the framework. Apparently there are spar varnishes and there are spar varnishes, and the selection depends upon what glue you use to attach the fabric. One archive recommendation says that using varnish itself as a glue if an excellent method as it bonds varnish to varnish with the fabric in between. I've also read that a sticky-backed tape should be put over the framework so as to underlie the fabric so that when it's stitched the fabric doesn't contact the edges of the wood, which might cause fabric fraying/abrasion. Then a cement, the fabric, the stitching and finally the pinked tape. I like the Sherwin- Williams latex idea, if for no other reason it has all the qualities I want. I get mixed messages from the archives, which is understandable since different strokes for different folks. What I'd like is/are recommendations for a complete process from those who've been there and done that. (I reinvented the wheel once, and it's not a thing of beauty!!) Dick Carden**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com %26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re: Spar VarnishI too would love to see the entire process thoroughly explained and in detail for start to finish. Of late I have completed the wood work on my tail section and while waiting for my spar material to come in I thought I would startthe sanding and coating process of the tail assemblies so bot the spar and coating discussions are timely for me. I would like to use house paint but want to make sure that the preparation though the final paint is detailed and understood. Changing or removing or destroying the finish or the fabric is notsomething I would like to do after using the wrong varnish, process or step progression. Can someone clarify the process, step by step material by material so I too know what to purchase, how much and how to apply it for the best results. Based upon yesterdays discussion I have probably looked at, at least a dozen different coating and varnishes and still have nothing to base a decision on.I would love to see a concensus for the collective wisdom on the ultimate coating and coloring system from an availability, cost and ease of applicationperspective.As usual I appreciate and value your input, this entire issue has gotten rather confusing for me.Thanks John Recine In a message dated 11/25/2008 8:11:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flywrite(at)verizon.net writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden Gosh, I'm almost sorry I asked!
Or maybe I just didn't ask enough questions. I'll start over: I'm using the medium-weight heat- shrinkable fabric from AS. I don't plan to follow anybody's proprietary processes. What I want to do is protect the wood with a sealant (varnish) and then apply a "glue" to attach the fabric to the framework. Apparently there are spar varnishes and there are spar varnishes, and the selection depends upon what glue you use to attach the fabric. One archive recommendation says that using varnish itself as a glue if an excellent method as it bonds varnish to varnish with the fabric in between. I've also read that a sticky-backed tape should be put over the framework so as to underlie the fabric so that when it's stitched the fabric doesn't contact the edges of the wood, which might cause fabric fraying/abrasion. Then a cement, the fabric, the stitching and finally the pinked tape. I like the Sherwin- Williams latex idea, if for no other reason it has all the qualities I want. I get mixed messages from the archives, which is understandable since different strokes for different folks. What I'd like is/are recommendations for a complete process from those who've been there and done that. (I reinvented the wheel once, and it's not a thing of beauty!!) Dick Carden**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com %26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)________________________________________________________________________________RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and wouldlike to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have workedin the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Directorfor various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market.I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearmsindustry.The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for the pasttwo decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the Environmental ProtectionAgency and cost considerations. This has been especially true for the last10 years. In order to meet the current environmental regulations for low solventcontent, manufacturers have had to dramatically reformulate their products.The old non-urethane based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils,such as linseed, tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly processand based more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulationsbegan to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's, thisreplacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior performanceand ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the late 80's the replacementof the old cooked varnishes with the oil modifed urethanes was almostcomplete. Their may have been a few hold outs, but t hey were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid to late 90's therewere many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket that far surpased theold style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified urethane varnishes dried faster,had better flexibility, better color retention and much better resistanceto UV degredation than the old style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed urethaneswere more than adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter whatfinishing process was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one fromMinwax for his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardwarewith success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have changeddramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC regulations andprobobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner test. I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know what I havehad to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these regulations! Noneof the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes. This especially true whenit comes to solvent resistance. If it were me (which it is as I am in thevarnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I would do.1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer solvents suchas Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy would be a good option.Just be aware that epoxies have very poor resistance to UV light and thecoatings are expensive and somewhat difficult to apply. 2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more options.Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently available exteriorgrade oil modified urethanes would be OK.3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link to information on the varnish http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm. Rick SchreiberValparaiso, INlmforge(at)earthlink.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing WoodDate: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:49:25 -0500
I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and wouldlike to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have workedin the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Directorfor various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market.I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearmsindustry.The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for the pasttwo decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the Environmental ProtectionAgency and cost considerations. This has been especially true for the last10 years. In order to meet the current environmental regulations for low solventcontent, manufacturers have had to dramatically reformulate their products.The old non-urethane based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils,such as linseed, tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly processand based more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulationsbegan to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's, thisreplacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior performanceand ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the late 80's the replacementof the old cooked varnishes with the oil modifed urethanes was almostcomplete. Their may have been a few hold outs, but t hey were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid to late 90's therewere many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket that far surpased theold style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified urethane varnishes dried faster,had better flexibility, better color retention and much better resistanceto UV degredation than the old style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed urethaneswere more than adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter whatfinishing process was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one fromMinwax for his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardwarewith success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have changeddramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC regulations andprobobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner test. I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know what I havehad to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these regulations! Noneof the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes. This especially true whenit comes to solvent resistance. If it were me (which it is as I am in thevarnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I would do.1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer solvents suchas Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy would be a good option.Just be aware that epoxies have very poor resistance to UV light and thecoatings are expensive and somewhat difficult to apply. 2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more options.Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently available exteriorgrade oil modified urethanes would be OK.3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link to information on the varnish http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm. Rick SchreiberValparaiso, INlmforge(at)earthlink.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing WoodDate: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:49:25 -0500
RE: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By:> Oscar Zuniga
The main difference in weight in the different topcoats is how much youwind up putting on. The pigments used in white house paint, Stits,Randolph, Airtech etc are all the same and weigh the same. The differencein weight of the base resins is negligible, the real difference in weightof the dry, cured film is in how much you apply. There is probably morepigment in latex house paint, as the manufacturer is trying for one coatcoverage, than in a typical aircraft coating. However, if you use housepaint you should be able to get by with less application thickness.One word of caution, if you go the non-certified route and use latex housepaint or auto paint, you are serving as your own test lab. Unfortunatelywith most of us this testing will occur on the plane as the final product.Even if you make up some test frames and stick them outside for a few yearsof exposure, its not real world. For example, make a test frame usingDuponts 2 part Urethane Imron for the fabric topcoat, it will appear toweather just fine. However, put this same coating on a fabric coveredaircraft wing and it will crack and ringworm in a couple of years time.Some will claim they have used auto enamels with success, but how thick didthey apply it and how many flight hours on the cover job? Latex house paintmay work fine for some, but if you follow someone elses lead you can't besure of the same results unless you follow the exact same procedure.Rick Schreiber> [Original Message]
The main difference in weight in the different topcoats is how much youwind up putting on. The pigments used in white house paint, Stits,Randolph, Airtech etc are all the same and weigh the same. The differencein weight of the base resins is negligible, the real difference in weightof the dry, cured film is in how much you apply. There is probably morepigment in latex house paint, as the manufacturer is trying for one coatcoverage, than in a typical aircraft coating. However, if you use housepaint you should be able to get by with less application thickness.One word of caution, if you go the non-certified route and use latex housepaint or auto paint, you are serving as your own test lab. Unfortunatelywith most of us this testing will occur on the plane as the final product.Even if you make up some test frames and stick them outside for a few yearsof exposure, its not real world. For example, make a test frame usingDuponts 2 part Urethane Imron for the fabric topcoat, it will appear toweather just fine. However, put this same coating on a fabric coveredaircraft wing and it will crack and ringworm in a couple of years time.Some will claim they have used auto enamels with success, but how thick didthey apply it and how many flight hours on the cover job? Latex house paintmay work fine for some, but if you follow someone elses lead you can't besure of the same results unless you follow the exact same procedure.Rick Schreiber> [Original Message]
RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Now, there's an educated reply. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Rick.I just recently finished "varnishing" my empennage with Minwax's SparUrethane. I noticed that the can had a note indicating that the product was"improved", and was now quicker drying. That obviously means that theformulation has been changed. What it doesn't say is whether the newest"improvement" results in a more durable finish (the sticker on the lid ofthe can did not claim it to be more durable, so I doubt that it is). Irecall postings from a few years ago that implied that hardware storeurethanes are much less impervious to solvents if one attempts to cover soonafter sealing, as the finish has not fully cured. As I recall, it wassuggested that the urethane be allowed to cure for at least a month beforeapplying solvent-based adhesives (hope my memory is working). I have recently been thinking that the Stewart's water-based adhesives soundlike a good idea, and may be the route I take when I get to that stage ofbuilding, and I read recently that Kitplanes magazine is planning to publishan in-depth review of the products. From what I have read, the Stewart'sproducts work as well as, if not better than the traditional systems. Thedisadvantage, at this point, is the relative newness of the system, and thelack of a long-term proven track record.I have no doubt that, with the way things have been going, practically allsolvent-based products will become increasingly more rare, if not bannedoutright. Some may say that the traditional finishes will never be replaced,but I can recall just a few years ago, hearing many people say that theywould never be able to restrict cigarette smoking. Same story with leadedgasoline. Change is coming, like it or not. The good thing is that someoneis working on solutions now.Bill C. _____
Now, there's an educated reply. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Rick.I just recently finished "varnishing" my empennage with Minwax's SparUrethane. I noticed that the can had a note indicating that the product was"improved", and was now quicker drying. That obviously means that theformulation has been changed. What it doesn't say is whether the newest"improvement" results in a more durable finish (the sticker on the lid ofthe can did not claim it to be more durable, so I doubt that it is). Irecall postings from a few years ago that implied that hardware storeurethanes are much less impervious to solvents if one attempts to cover soonafter sealing, as the finish has not fully cured. As I recall, it wassuggested that the urethane be allowed to cure for at least a month beforeapplying solvent-based adhesives (hope my memory is working). I have recently been thinking that the Stewart's water-based adhesives soundlike a good idea, and may be the route I take when I get to that stage ofbuilding, and I read recently that Kitplanes magazine is planning to publishan in-depth review of the products. From what I have read, the Stewart'sproducts work as well as, if not better than the traditional systems. Thedisadvantage, at this point, is the relative newness of the system, and thelack of a long-term proven track record.I have no doubt that, with the way things have been going, practically allsolvent-based products will become increasingly more rare, if not bannedoutright. Some may say that the traditional finishes will never be replaced,but I can recall just a few years ago, hearing many people say that theywould never be able to restrict cigarette smoking. Same story with leadedgasoline. Change is coming, like it or not. The good thing is that someoneis working on solutions now.Bill C. _____
RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
Original Posted By: Phillips, Jack
Jack,Typical 2 part epoxy clears show pretty severe degradation within 6 months of continualexterior exposure here in the midwest. Degradation naturally will occurfaster in southern climates. The mode of degradation is loss of gloss, withthe coating turning a chalky white given enough exposure time. In your case,since you do not hanger the Piet outside, the limited exterior exposure will probablynot be a problem. If and when it ever becomes an issue, just remove thegear legs and re-sand to bare wood or at least remove the surface oxidation.Then refinish with an exterior grade varnish. If you get on the Gougeon Brothers West System epoxy web site they talk about someof these issues. Even though they market a 2 part epoxy clear for wood, theytoo talk about using an exterior varnish over their epoxy for UV protection.Rick Schreiber5936D----- Original Message -----
Jack,Typical 2 part epoxy clears show pretty severe degradation within 6 months of continualexterior exposure here in the midwest. Degradation naturally will occurfaster in southern climates. The mode of degradation is loss of gloss, withthe coating turning a chalky white given enough exposure time. In your case,since you do not hanger the Piet outside, the limited exterior exposure will probablynot be a problem. If and when it ever becomes an issue, just remove thegear legs and re-sand to bare wood or at least remove the surface oxidation.Then refinish with an exterior grade varnish. If you get on the Gougeon Brothers West System epoxy web site they talk about someof these issues. Even though they market a 2 part epoxy clear for wood, theytoo talk about using an exterior varnish over their epoxy for UV protection.Rick Schreiber5936D----- Original Message -----
RE: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: "Richard Schreiber"
Oscar,This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Gregbacon's) Piet was painted with Latex.Is this a recent discovery?Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
Oscar,This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Gregbacon's) Piet was painted with Latex.Is this a recent discovery?Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
Original Posted By: Bill Church
Bill,You are right about letting oil modified urethanes cure for an extended periodof time before applying fabric. This is true of any varnish that cures by oxidation.Epoxies or 2 part urethanes cure by an entirely different chemical processand should be ready for covering in 24 to 72 hours. As for the oil modifiedvarnishes, one month would be plenty of time. You may be able to cover sooner,depending on the thickness of the applied varnish and the temperature in theroom where the parts are kept. Its best to coat a scrap of wood exactly thesame as the part being covered. When the test piece is capable of passing the30 minute MEK or lacquer thinner test, then you are good to go.I am very aware of the Stewart's water based system. Dan and Doug Stewart are bothmembers of the Short Wing Piper Club as I am. I have attended their coveringseminars and have a copy of their covering DVD set and I am impressed! If myfacts are straight, the adhesive and primer parts of their water based systemhave been around for a number of years and have worked quite well. The top coatpart is relatively new, but the entire system is certified. I do have somefamiliarity with how the products are formulated and I think they will performOK. I plan on probably using their system at least up through the primer andmaybe the entire way.Rick SchreiberValparaiso, IN5936D PA22-150----- Original Message -----
Bill,You are right about letting oil modified urethanes cure for an extended periodof time before applying fabric. This is true of any varnish that cures by oxidation.Epoxies or 2 part urethanes cure by an entirely different chemical processand should be ready for covering in 24 to 72 hours. As for the oil modifiedvarnishes, one month would be plenty of time. You may be able to cover sooner,depending on the thickness of the applied varnish and the temperature in theroom where the parts are kept. Its best to coat a scrap of wood exactly thesame as the part being covered. When the test piece is capable of passing the30 minute MEK or lacquer thinner test, then you are good to go.I am very aware of the Stewart's water based system. Dan and Doug Stewart are bothmembers of the Short Wing Piper Club as I am. I have attended their coveringseminars and have a copy of their covering DVD set and I am impressed! If myfacts are straight, the adhesive and primer parts of their water based systemhave been around for a number of years and have worked quite well. The top coatpart is relatively new, but the entire system is certified. I do have somefamiliarity with how the products are formulated and I think they will performOK. I plan on probably using their system at least up through the primer andmaybe the entire way.Rick SchreiberValparaiso, IN5936D PA22-150----- Original Message -----
Re: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint (OT)
Original Posted By: "Owen Davies"
Owen, The Indy project is moving forward again and the last bit of structure is being completd now, the motor mount. The aircraft is structurely complete now and is covered and painted. Engine has been completed and run. Hope to put a few photos on the chapter website soon.Ernie----- Original Message -----
Owen, The Indy project is moving forward again and the last bit of structure is being completd now, the motor mount. The aircraft is structurely complete now and is covered and painted. Engine has been completed and run. Hope to put a few photos on the chapter website soon.Ernie----- Original Message -----
Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint (OT)
Original Posted By: H RULE
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives
Original Posted By:> Ben Charvet
Ben and others contemplating using latex house paint as a topcoat.Be very careful thinning these products with a lot of water for sprayapplication. I don't want to bore everyone with the technology, but this ishow these products work. The base resin, whether it be acrylic or PolyVinyl Acetate, is basically composed of very tiny spherical particles ofresin, water, coalescing solvent, emulsifiers and some various other magicingredients. As the water and coalescing solvents evaporate, the resinparticles get packed closer and closer. Finally they are packed so tight bycapillary action that the coalescing solvent migrates into the resinparticles and causes the resin to "fuse" into a continuous film. Withoutthe coalescing solvent or if its in the wrong proportions, the resins donot coalesce and the coating turns to dust. If too much water is added, itcan severely impact this process as the water interferes with the fusingprocess. The problem with doing this on an aircraft coating is you wouldhave no idea how severely this has affected the paint. It may appear to beok, but you find out later that your latex topcoat starts to lose adhesionto the primer in the slipstream when the plane goes over 60 mph. Justremember this is not just a cosmetic issue. If the primer or the topcoatstarts to unzip on the wing, especially in the leading edge area, you couldbe in for a world of hurt. The airfoil could be affected the same as if ithad a coating of frost on it and stop flying. This is why the FAA is so adamant about following the STC for coatingssystems. Its not about cosmetics, but flight safety.Rick SchreiberValparaiso, IN> [Original Message]
Ben and others contemplating using latex house paint as a topcoat.Be very careful thinning these products with a lot of water for sprayapplication. I don't want to bore everyone with the technology, but this ishow these products work. The base resin, whether it be acrylic or PolyVinyl Acetate, is basically composed of very tiny spherical particles ofresin, water, coalescing solvent, emulsifiers and some various other magicingredients. As the water and coalescing solvents evaporate, the resinparticles get packed closer and closer. Finally they are packed so tight bycapillary action that the coalescing solvent migrates into the resinparticles and causes the resin to "fuse" into a continuous film. Withoutthe coalescing solvent or if its in the wrong proportions, the resins donot coalesce and the coating turns to dust. If too much water is added, itcan severely impact this process as the water interferes with the fusingprocess. The problem with doing this on an aircraft coating is you wouldhave no idea how severely this has affected the paint. It may appear to beok, but you find out later that your latex topcoat starts to lose adhesionto the primer in the slipstream when the plane goes over 60 mph. Justremember this is not just a cosmetic issue. If the primer or the topcoatstarts to unzip on the wing, especially in the leading edge area, you couldbe in for a world of hurt. The airfoil could be affected the same as if ithad a coating of frost on it and stop flying. This is why the FAA is so adamant about following the STC for coatingssystems. Its not about cosmetics, but flight safety.Rick SchreiberValparaiso, IN> [Original Message]
Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
Bill Church wrote-> > This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Greg> bacon's) Piet was painted with Latex.> Is this a recent discovery?Well, I went back and re-read the info from John (down near the bottom, at http://www.westcoastpiet.com/steve_eldridge.htm ) and it actually says that he used the Fisher method, which involves black latex house paint as the primer, weave filler, and UV protection, and then applied automotive enamel over that. So I was only partially correct in what I said.On a completely different subject, I just noticed that Mike Cuy's Piet has brassleading edges on the prop. Hmmm... I don't remember seeing that in the constructionvideos. I sure like that look on a prop for these airplanes.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
Bill Church wrote-> > This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Greg> bacon's) Piet was painted with Latex.> Is this a recent discovery?Well, I went back and re-read the info from John (down near the bottom, at http://www.westcoastpiet.com/steve_eldridge.htm ) and it actually says that he used the Fisher method, which involves black latex house paint as the primer, weave filler, and UV protection, and then applied automotive enamel over that. So I was only partially correct in what I said.On a completely different subject, I just noticed that Mike Cuy's Piet has brassleading edges on the prop. Hmmm... I don't remember seeing that in the constructionvideos. I sure like that look on a prop for these airplanes.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paintI realize there is much I do not know about many things so it surprises me to learn that an automotive paint which I suspect would have been a solvent based enamel could adhere to a latex paint. It stands to reason the two materials are vastly different in chemistry and properties. The typical enamel automotive style coating would be a brittle material more rigid and with little flexibility other than its own expansion properties where as the underlying a latex material is a more flexible rubber type material with greater flex capability. When the skin needed to flex under load, the top coat automotive coating would be resistant to that mechanical stretching and begin to lose adhesion to its latex bonding base and chip off perhaps causing the cloth to follow.Although the use of automotive paint sounds attractive and would permit a nice smooth and highly more aerodynamic surface it doesn't sound practical overthe latex base. I suspect one would have to uses an automotive primer, base coat and clear coat system to do it all properly.These are my own though's of how materials work and behave. I call once again on the collective wisdom and science of the experts and the coating Godsto show me the errors of my ways and point me the direction of truth. I would love to use a latex base and get the ease of application and cost benefit and the automotive finish topcoat if it is possible, practical and doesnot compromise safety of flight. It seems that like the airplane the coating systems are a series of compromises and there is just something about a wing loosing its covering in flight is just a bit more adventure than I care to experience.JohnIn a message dated 11/26/2008 8:44:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Oscar Zuniga Bill Church wrote-> > This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Greg> bacon's) Piet was painted with Latex.> Is this a recent discovery?Well, I went back and re-read the info from John (down near the bottom, at http://www.westcoastpiet.com/steve_eldridge.htm ) and it actually says that he used the Fisher method, which involves black latex house paint as the primer, weave filler, and UV protection, and then applied automotive enamel overthat. So I was only partially correct in what I said.On a completely different subject, I just noticed that Mike Cuy's Piet has brass leading edges on the prop. Hmmm... I don't remember seeing that in theconstruction videos. I sure like that look on a prop for these airplanes.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paintI realize there is much I do not know about many things so it surprises me to learn that an automotive paint which I suspect would have been a solvent based enamel could adhere to a latex paint. It stands to reason the two materials are vastly different in chemistry and properties. The typical enamel automotive style coating would be a brittle material more rigid and with little flexibility other than its own expansion properties where as the underlying a latex material is a more flexible rubber type material with greater flex capability. When the skin needed to flex under load, the top coat automotive coating would be resistant to that mechanical stretching and begin to lose adhesion to its latex bonding base and chip off perhaps causing the cloth to follow.Although the use of automotive paint sounds attractive and would permit a nice smooth and highly more aerodynamic surface it doesn't sound practical overthe latex base. I suspect one would have to uses an automotive primer, base coat and clear coat system to do it all properly.These are my own though's of how materials work and behave. I call once again on the collective wisdom and science of the experts and the coating Godsto show me the errors of my ways and point me the direction of truth. I would love to use a latex base and get the ease of application and cost benefit and the automotive finish topcoat if it is possible, practical and doesnot compromise safety of flight. It seems that like the airplane the coating systems are a series of compromises and there is just something about a wing loosing its covering in flight is just a bit more adventure than I care to experience.JohnIn a message dated 11/26/2008 8:44:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, taildrags(at)hotmail.com writes:--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Oscar Zuniga Bill Church wrote-> > This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Greg> bacon's) Piet was painted with Latex.> Is this a recent discovery?Well, I went back and re-read the info from John (down near the bottom, at http://www.westcoastpiet.com/steve_eldridge.htm ) and it actually says that he used the Fisher method, which involves black latex house paint as the primer, weave filler, and UV protection, and then applied automotive enamel overthat. So I was only partially correct in what I said.On a completely different subject, I just noticed that Mike Cuy's Piet has brass leading edges on the prop. Hmmm... I don't remember seeing that in theconstruction videos. I sure like that look on a prop for these airplanes.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
John,Flex agents are available for automotive paints.works well, highly caustic,though, and you would definitely want your own air supply. I learned thisthe hard way, and, for that reason, am very interested in the StewartSystem.Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)(12 ribs down.) _____
John,Flex agents are available for automotive paints.works well, highly caustic,though, and you would definitely want your own air supply. I learned thisthe hard way, and, for that reason, am very interested in the StewartSystem.Gary BootheCool, Ca.PietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)(12 ribs down.) _____
Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paintGary,Where would I get information on the Stewart System is there a web site I can review to become familiar with their system?Please adviseThanks JohnIn a message dated 11/26/2008 9:40:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gboothe(at)calply.com writes:John, Flex agents are available for automotive paintsworks well, highly caustic, though, and you would definitely want your own air supply. I learned this the hard way, and, for that reason, am very interested in the Stewart System. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down)____________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paintGary,Where would I get information on the Stewart System is there a web site I can review to become familiar with their system?Please adviseThanks JohnIn a message dated 11/26/2008 9:40:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gboothe(at)calply.com writes:John, Flex agents are available for automotive paintsworks well, highly caustic, though, and you would definitely want your own air supply. I learned this the hard way, and, for that reason, am very interested in the Stewart System. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down)____________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: AMsafetyC(at)aol.com
John,You didn't try very hard.I just googled "stewart system" and the company website came up as thenumber 1 site.Or just click here:http://www.stewartsystems.aero/Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________
John,You didn't try very hard.I just googled "stewart system" and the company website came up as thenumber 1 site.Or just click here:http://www.stewartsystems.aero/Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: H RULE
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paintI suppose not, I goggled it and came up with a dozen Stewart's one of which was Martha and I know she's not coking up coatings in her kitchen so I figuredI would ask rather than waste time on whats Martha up to today!Thanks for the linkJohnIn a message dated 11/26/2008 1:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, eng(at)canadianrogers.com writes:John,You didn't try very hard.I just googled "stewart system" and the company website came up as the number 1 site.Or just click here:_http://www.stewartsystems.aero/_ (http://www.stewartsystems.aero/) Bill C.(http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:29:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paintI suppose not, I goggled it and came up with a dozen Stewart's one of which was Martha and I know she's not coking up coatings in her kitchen so I figuredI would ask rather than waste time on whats Martha up to today!Thanks for the linkJohnIn a message dated 11/26/2008 1:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, eng(at)canadianrogers.com writes:John,You didn't try very hard.I just googled "stewart system" and the company website came up as the number 1 site.Or just click here:_http://www.stewartsystems.aero/_ (http://www.stewartsystems.aero/) Bill C.(http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:29:14 -0800 (PST)
> Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Original Posted By: Owen Davies
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint>>> It sounds to me like it might be time for a scientific test. Lay up twowooden test frames of a statistically-significant size (say maybe 2 ft.square apiece), cover both using the same fabric, and then finish one withthe Poly-Fiber process and the other with the Fisher latex house paintmethod (as detailed in Stevee's notes on Westcoastpiet).> > When completely cured, cut both test sections out of their frames and putthem on a digital scale and compare the weight. Multiply the difference bythe approximate number of yards of fabric used in a Piet project, and wewill then know how much difference there is in weight.> > I was quite surprised to see that John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's)"Mountain Piet" also wears latex house paint. It's a beauty.> > I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite anumber of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his timeand talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the"Noon Patrol"... the squadron of 13 Nieuport replicas that flew into thehistory books a few years ago as a remarkable group project. Pictures andstory at http://eaa292.org/noonpatrol_hi-res.html>> Oscar Zuniga> Air Camper NX41CC> San Antonio, TX> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:13:22 -0500
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint>>> It sounds to me like it might be time for a scientific test. Lay up twowooden test frames of a statistically-significant size (say maybe 2 ft.square apiece), cover both using the same fabric, and then finish one withthe Poly-Fiber process and the other with the Fisher latex house paintmethod (as detailed in Stevee's notes on Westcoastpiet).> > When completely cured, cut both test sections out of their frames and putthem on a digital scale and compare the weight. Multiply the difference bythe approximate number of yards of fabric used in a Piet project, and wewill then know how much difference there is in weight.> > I was quite surprised to see that John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's)"Mountain Piet" also wears latex house paint. It's a beauty.> > I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite anumber of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his timeand talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the"Noon Patrol"... the squadron of 13 Nieuport replicas that flew into thehistory books a few years ago as a remarkable group project. Pictures andstory at http://eaa292.org/noonpatrol_hi-res.html>> Oscar Zuniga> Air Camper NX41CC> San Antonio, TX> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net>>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:13:22 -0500
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives
Original Posted By: Owen Davies
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives>>> I experimented with Floetrol, windshield washer fluid, and plain old > water. The floetrol gave the worse results, and I couldn't tell the > difference between water and washer fluid. I was honestly surprised how > nice it went on with the HVLP gun. Getting it thin enough must be the > trick, and I was probably using a little more pressure than I would use > for an auto paint job, because there was more overspray. One thing I > did do was spray all the pieces flat so I could put on a good wet coat, > the water reducer/thinner allowed it to flow out very smooth. The > Sherwin Williams latex is quite thick, so I am using 2 parts SW to one > part distilled water.>> Ben> Oscar Zuniga wrote:> >> >> > Ben;> > > > I'm quite interested in your latex application technique. You say"thinned". Does that mean you used Floetrol or water? Two completelydifferent things, as I understand it... water will thin the paint butFloetrol makes it flow out. Not sure how much of that is product hype andhow much is real. Either way, one or the other is necessary for shootinglatex from a regular gun so I'm curious as to your technique.> >> > >>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:53:30 -0500
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives>>> I experimented with Floetrol, windshield washer fluid, and plain old > water. The floetrol gave the worse results, and I couldn't tell the > difference between water and washer fluid. I was honestly surprised how > nice it went on with the HVLP gun. Getting it thin enough must be the > trick, and I was probably using a little more pressure than I would use > for an auto paint job, because there was more overspray. One thing I > did do was spray all the pieces flat so I could put on a good wet coat, > the water reducer/thinner allowed it to flow out very smooth. The > Sherwin Williams latex is quite thick, so I am using 2 parts SW to one > part distilled water.>> Ben> Oscar Zuniga wrote:> >> >> > Ben;> > > > I'm quite interested in your latex application technique. You say"thinned". Does that mean you used Floetrol or water? Two completelydifferent things, as I understand it... water will thin the paint butFloetrol makes it flow out. Not sure how much of that is product hype andhow much is real. Either way, one or the other is necessary for shootinglatex from a regular gun so I'm curious as to your technique.> >> > >>________________________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:53:30 -0500