Original Posted By: Steve Eldredge
Hello everyone...I just finished my wings and need to turn my attention to brakes. I try to figure things out on my own but I think the experience of others will help me with the best position for my heel brake pedals. I'm sure most Piets have heel brakes and some folks wish they had put them slightly farther forward or aft. The Areonca that I fly has heel brakes but with rudder pedals so that doesn't help much. So...My question is=3B How far back from the rudder bar is the ideal position for the brake pedals?? That's probably a dumb question because I've never seen it asked before. Thanks Ed Grentzer________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
RE: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Where is the best position for the turnbuckles in the ailerons.Would like to put them in wing center section to enable easy wing removal, but not much space. They have to be accessed for maintenance,-If I put them in the cockpit, the fittings would not go thru the pulleys in the center section during wing removal in the easrly stages.-Can=A2t find any info in archives-Regards Graham Hewitt________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Where is the best position for the turnbuckles in the ailerons.Would like to put them in wing center section to enable easy wing removal, but not much space. They have to be accessed for maintenance,-If I put them in the cockpit, the fittings would not go thru the pulleys in the center section during wing removal in the easrly stages.-Can=A2t find any info in archives-Regards Graham Hewitt________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Arden Adamson"
Just a thought... I used hand brakes mounted up and out of the way under the panel.They are just mechanical drum brakes for go-carts. I've been real happywith the set-up. If you are interested I'll try to get some pictures.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Just a thought... I used hand brakes mounted up and out of the way under the panel.They are just mechanical drum brakes for go-carts. I've been real happywith the set-up. If you are interested I'll try to get some pictures.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Don,I'd like to know more about your brakes. Pictures would be great.Arden AdamsonWaupaca, WIPiet builder-----Original Message-----
Don,I'd like to know more about your brakes. Pictures would be great.Arden AdamsonWaupaca, WIPiet builder-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
Michael,-Even when on the ground, you're going to need to keep one hand on the stick, since you should always be applying full "up" elevator when taxiing, so the two-handle idea probably isn't going to fly (sorry for the bad pun).-There was a list member several years ago that had developed a stick-mounted differential hand brake system, but I don't know if it ever got completed, and if it did, how well it worked. The braking force was to be applied through a motorcycle-type lever, and moving the stick side-to-side would apply more braking power to one side or the other. Sounds like a neat idea - just don't know if it really worked. It may require more squeezing power than the average hand can provide.-Bill C.
Michael,-Even when on the ground, you're going to need to keep one hand on the stick, since you should always be applying full "up" elevator when taxiing, so the two-handle idea probably isn't going to fly (sorry for the bad pun).-There was a list member several years ago that had developed a stick-mounted differential hand brake system, but I don't know if it ever got completed, and if it did, how well it worked. The braking force was to be applied through a motorcycle-type lever, and moving the stick side-to-side would apply more braking power to one side or the other. Sounds like a neat idea - just don't know if it really worked. It may require more squeezing power than the average hand can provide.-Bill C.
Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By:> > owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals> I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about > > wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite > a > few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a > standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've > been > in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. > > When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you > actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of > the > cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were > many > Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with > a > Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to > > pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw > Heath > (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out > to > grab or rub the wheels for friction.> > I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a > taildragger, > especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your > nose. > They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the > > way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube > brakes > on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is > all I > figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is > > supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred > feet, > even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I > was > passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like > being > able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with > hand > on throttle and stick.> > Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours > dual > in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun.> > "I knew she wasn't worth top billing."> > -john-> > John Hofmann> Vice-President, Information Technology> The Rees Group, Inc.> 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800> Madison, WI 53718> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150> Fax: 608.443.2474> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> > On Feb 11, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Phillips, Jack wrote:> > > Did you ever notice historically that airplanes quit using big > > spoked wheels at about the same time they started using brakes? > It > > takes A LOT of braking torque to stop a big wheel. Ive got 8 > > Cleveland hydraulic brakes on my Pietenpol, with 21 wheels. > The > > brakes are adequate to hold it for a run-up, but wont quite > hold it > > still at full power. If I get on the brakes HARD right after > > touchdown, it still takes a couple hundred feet to stop the > > airplane. I dont know that you would find much difference > between > > mechanical or hydraulic brakes. Ive flown Mike Cuys > Pietenpol, > > and he has 19 wheels with mechanical brakes, with about the > same > > effectiveness as mine. They are useful for a run-up and for > taxiing > > and turning tight corners. Really, they are perfectly adequate, > but > > nothing like you get with small wheels.> >> > Whatever you use, drum or disc, use the biggest drum or disc you > can > > find. Look at the size of the disc on a Harley. Ill bet those > > > discs are 12 in diameter, and they get excellent stopping power > on > > a vehicle that weighs about what a Pietenpol does (or less)> >> > Jack Phillips> > NX899JP> >
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals> I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about > > wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite > a > few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a > standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've > been > in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. > > When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you > actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of > the > cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were > many > Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with > a > Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to > > pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw > Heath > (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out > to > grab or rub the wheels for friction.> > I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a > taildragger, > especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your > nose. > They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the > > way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube > brakes > on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is > all I > figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is > > supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred > feet, > even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I > was > passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like > being > able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with > hand > on throttle and stick.> > Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours > dual > in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun.> > "I knew she wasn't worth top billing."> > -john-> > John Hofmann> Vice-President, Information Technology> The Rees Group, Inc.> 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800> Madison, WI 53718> Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150> Fax: 608.443.2474> Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.com> > On Feb 11, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Phillips, Jack wrote:> > > Did you ever notice historically that airplanes quit using big > > spoked wheels at about the same time they started using brakes? > It > > takes A LOT of braking torque to stop a big wheel. Ive got 8 > > Cleveland hydraulic brakes on my Pietenpol, with 21 wheels. > The > > brakes are adequate to hold it for a run-up, but wont quite > hold it > > still at full power. If I get on the brakes HARD right after > > touchdown, it still takes a couple hundred feet to stop the > > airplane. I dont know that you would find much difference > between > > mechanical or hydraulic brakes. Ive flown Mike Cuys > Pietenpol, > > and he has 19 wheels with mechanical brakes, with about the > same > > effectiveness as mine. They are useful for a run-up and for > taxiing > > and turning tight corners. Really, they are perfectly adequate, > but > > nothing like you get with small wheels.> >> > Whatever you use, drum or disc, use the biggest drum or disc you > can > > find. Look at the size of the disc on a Harley. Ill bet those > > > discs are 12 in diameter, and they get excellent stopping power > on > > a vehicle that weighs about what a Pietenpol does (or less)> >> > Jack Phillips> > NX899JP> >
Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB"
I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite a few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've been in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of the cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were many Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with a Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw Heath (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out to grab or rub the wheels for friction. I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a taildragger, especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your nose. They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube brakes on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is all I figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred feet, even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I was passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like being able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with hand on throttle and stick.Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours dual in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun."I knew she wasn't worth top billing."-john-________________________________________________________________________________
I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite a few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've been in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of the cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were many Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with a Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw Heath (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out to grab or rub the wheels for friction. I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a taildragger, especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your nose. They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube brakes on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is all I figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred feet, even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I was passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like being able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with hand on throttle and stick.Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours dual in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun."I knew she wasn't worth top billing."-john-________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Michael,Even when on the ground, you're going to need to keep one hand on the stick,since you should always be applying full "up" elevator when taxiing, so thetwo-handle idea probably isn't going to fly (sorry for the bad pun).There was a list member several years ago that had developed a stick-mounteddifferential hand brake system, but I don't know if it ever got completed,and if it did, how well it worked. The braking force was to be appliedthrough a motorcycle-type lever, and moving the stick side-to-side wouldapply more braking power to one side or the other. Sounds like a neat idea -just don't know if it really worked. It may require more squeezing powerthan the average hand can provide.Bill C. _____
Michael,Even when on the ground, you're going to need to keep one hand on the stick,since you should always be applying full "up" elevator when taxiing, so thetwo-handle idea probably isn't going to fly (sorry for the bad pun).There was a list member several years ago that had developed a stick-mounteddifferential hand brake system, but I don't know if it ever got completed,and if it did, how well it worked. The braking force was to be appliedthrough a motorcycle-type lever, and moving the stick side-to-side wouldapply more braking power to one side or the other. Sounds like a neat idea -just don't know if it really worked. It may require more squeezing powerthan the average hand can provide.Bill C. _____
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsMichael, Even when on the ground, you're going to need to keep one hand on the stick, sinceyou should always be applying full "up" elevator when taxiing, so the two-handleidea probably isn't going to fly (sorry for the bad pun). There was a list member several years ago that had developed a stick-mounted differentialhand brake system, but I don't know if it ever got completed, and ifit did, how well it worked. The braking force was to be applied through a motorcycle-typelever, and moving the stick side-to-side would apply more brakingpower to one side or the other. Sounds like a neat idea - just don't know ifit really worked. It may require more squeezing power than the average hand canprovide. Bill C.----------------
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsMichael, Even when on the ground, you're going to need to keep one hand on the stick, sinceyou should always be applying full "up" elevator when taxiing, so the two-handleidea probably isn't going to fly (sorry for the bad pun). There was a list member several years ago that had developed a stick-mounted differentialhand brake system, but I don't know if it ever got completed, and ifit did, how well it worked. The braking force was to be applied through a motorcycle-typelever, and moving the stick side-to-side would apply more brakingpower to one side or the other. Sounds like a neat idea - just don't know ifit really worked. It may require more squeezing power than the average hand canprovide. Bill C.----------------
RE: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Phillips, Jack"
Is my reasoning going soft=2C or will different types of brakeswork differently with spoked motorcycle-style wheels asopposed to smaller wheels and tires? It would seem like amechanical drum brake would work well with motorcyclestyle wheels.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedalsDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:11:38 -0500
Is my reasoning going soft=2C or will different types of brakeswork differently with spoked motorcycle-style wheels asopposed to smaller wheels and tires? It would seem like amechanical drum brake would work well with motorcyclestyle wheels.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedalsDate: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:11:38 -0500
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Bill Church
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsI'm with Bill on this. Having taught many hours of tailwheel instruction it ismy opinion that you need to be prepared to manipulate every control surface onthe ground that you would require in the air (that includes the throttle). The easiest airplanes to teach on are those equiped with toe brakes followed bythose with heel brakes. Any braking system that removes one or more or yourlimbs from your primary flight controls will inevitably put a person in a situationwhere they cannot fully control the airplane at the very moment when itdesperatly requires you to do so. This being the case, I would prefer no brakesto a system like that (I've seen more planes with brakes ground loop or leavethe runway into the rubarb than ski planes - albeit the rubarb isn't too deepduring ski season
. Just my opinion. Scott knowlton -----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsI'm with Bill on this. Having taught many hours of tailwheel instruction it ismy opinion that you need to be prepared to manipulate every control surface onthe ground that you would require in the air (that includes the throttle). The easiest airplanes to teach on are those equiped with toe brakes followed bythose with heel brakes. Any braking system that removes one or more or yourlimbs from your primary flight controls will inevitably put a person in a situationwhere they cannot fully control the airplane at the very moment when itdesperatly requires you to do so. This being the case, I would prefer no brakesto a system like that (I've seen more planes with brakes ground loop or leavethe runway into the rubarb than ski planes - albeit the rubarb isn't too deepduring ski season
. Just my opinion. Scott knowlton -----Original Message-----Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Pietenpol-List: brakesTo me brakes on a Pietenpol are only necessary for engine run-up and to keep from rolling into another airplane or the gas pumpsat slow taxi speeds. If you have to use brakes on takeoffs or landings, you're in a bad position somehow.Additionally for every landing and takeoff both hands should never leave the throttle and stick. A deer crossing the runway onlanding---a go around is needed immediately. A guy taxies out in front of you...any number of things like you want to abort a takeoff.I guess it is all what you're used to in braking. For me I installed heel brakes like I was taught to use in my first taildragger--an AeroncaChamp. Anyone who has Cub or Champ time feels comfortable with heel brakes.Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:23:04 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Subject: Pietenpol-List: brakesTo me brakes on a Pietenpol are only necessary for engine run-up and to keep from rolling into another airplane or the gas pumpsat slow taxi speeds. If you have to use brakes on takeoffs or landings, you're in a bad position somehow.Additionally for every landing and takeoff both hands should never leave the throttle and stick. A deer crossing the runway onlanding---a go around is needed immediately. A guy taxies out in front of you...any number of things like you want to abort a takeoff.I guess it is all what you're used to in braking. For me I installed heel brakes like I was taught to use in my first taildragger--an AeroncaChamp. Anyone who has Cub or Champ time feels comfortable with heel brakes.Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:23:04 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsThere is a possibility that my next duty assignment will be in Austin, Texas. I really like where I have my plane in San Antonio (At 8T8, San Geronimo airpark).I have a private hanger with electricity. It is "only" about 2 hours fromAustin. So for a while I could leave my plane there. We have lived in the Austin area (Round Rock and I worked in Austin) before andknow that we may have to live in a suburb or outlying community in able to findan affordable house. Can anyone tell me about potential hangers/airports in the Austin Area? And ifthere might be any open hangers. That will influence where we start our housingsearch. Blue Skies, Steve DortchStraight 35 Bonanza8T8________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsThere is a possibility that my next duty assignment will be in Austin, Texas. I really like where I have my plane in San Antonio (At 8T8, San Geronimo airpark).I have a private hanger with electricity. It is "only" about 2 hours fromAustin. So for a while I could leave my plane there. We have lived in the Austin area (Round Rock and I worked in Austin) before andknow that we may have to live in a suburb or outlying community in able to findan affordable house. Can anyone tell me about potential hangers/airports in the Austin Area? And ifthere might be any open hangers. That will influence where we start our housingsearch. Blue Skies, Steve DortchStraight 35 Bonanza8T8________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
2008; 32bit)MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Language: enSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsX-Accept-Language: enPriority: normalIn-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiContent-Disposition: inlineContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitThere is a possibility that my next duty assignment will be in Austin, Texas. I really like where I have my plane in San Antonio (At 8T8, San Geronimo airpark).I have a private hanger with electricity. It is "only" about 2 hours fromAustin. So for a while I could leave my plane there. We have lived in the Austin area (Round Rock and I worked in Austin) before andknow that we may have to live in a suburb or outlying community in able to findan affordable house. Can anyone tell me about potential hangers/airports in the Austin Area? And ifthere might be any open hangers. That will influence where we start our housingsearch. Blue Skies, Steve DortchStraight 35 Bonanza8T8________________________________________________________________________________
2008; 32bit)MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Language: enSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedalsX-Accept-Language: enPriority: normalIn-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiContent-Disposition: inlineContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitThere is a possibility that my next duty assignment will be in Austin, Texas. I really like where I have my plane in San Antonio (At 8T8, San Geronimo airpark).I have a private hanger with electricity. It is "only" about 2 hours fromAustin. So for a while I could leave my plane there. We have lived in the Austin area (Round Rock and I worked in Austin) before andknow that we may have to live in a suburb or outlying community in able to findan affordable house. Can anyone tell me about potential hangers/airports in the Austin Area? And ifthere might be any open hangers. That will influence where we start our housingsearch. Blue Skies, Steve DortchStraight 35 Bonanza8T8________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Good clarifications, Ryan.Thanks for making that more clear.In any case it seems pretty clear that the pilot needs to keep both handsoccupied with things other than brakes, whether in the air or on the ground.Bill C. _____
Good clarifications, Ryan.Thanks for making that more clear.In any case it seems pretty clear that the pilot needs to keep both handsoccupied with things other than brakes, whether in the air or on the ground.Bill C. _____
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite a few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've been in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of the cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were many Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with a Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw Heath (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out to grab or rub the wheels for friction.I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a taildragger, especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your nose. They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube brakes on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is all I figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred feet, even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I was passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like being able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with hand on throttle and stick.Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours dual in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun."I knew she wasn't worth top billing."-john-John HofmannVice-President, Information TechnologyThe Rees Group, Inc.2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800Madison, WI 53718Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150Fax: 608.443.2474Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.comOn Feb 11, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Phillips, Jack wrote:> Did you ever notice historically that airplanes quit using big > spoked wheels at about the same time they started using brakes? It > takes A LOT of braking torque to stop a big wheel. I=92ve got 8=94 > Cleveland hydraulic brakes on my Pietenpol, with 21=94 wheels. The > brakes are adequate to hold it for a run-up, but won=92t quite hold it > still at full power. If I get on the brakes HARD right after > touchdown, it still takes a couple hundred feet to stop the > airplane. I don=92t know that you would find much difference between > mechanical or hydraulic brakes. I=92ve flown Mike Cuy=92s Pietenpol, > and he has 19=94 wheels with mechanical brakes, with about the same > effectiveness as mine. They are useful for a run-up and for taxiing > and turning tight corners. Really, they are perfectly adequate, but > nothing like you get with small wheels.>> Whatever you use, drum or disc, use the biggest drum or disc you can > find. Look at the size of the disc on a Harley. I=92ll bet those > discs are 12=94 in diameter, and they get excellent stopping power on > a vehicle that weighs about what a Pietenpol does (or less)>> Jack Phillips> NX899JP>
I am going to bite on this one too. Jack makes a great point about wheel size. About this time in aviation history, there were quite a few different methods of actuating brakes before there was a standardization of sorts with heel brakes then toe brakes. I've been in a WACO where the brakes where actuated with the throttle lever. When you needed brake, with your left hand on the throttle, you actually pulled the throttle lever inward, toward the inside of the cockpit to actuate brakes. That was a little weird. There were many Johnson Bar variations as well. I have been in a Stinson Jr. with a Johnson Bar between the seats. One had to move hands all around to pull up on the bar. That one made me uncomfortable. I also saw Heath (I think) where the pilot wore leather gloves and just reached out to grab or rub the wheels for friction.I have gotten to really like heel brakes. Toe brakes on a taildragger, especially if the brakes are good, can easily put you on your nose. They can be pretty too easy to actuate. Heel brakes are out of the way, for the most part, but easy to use. I have expander tube brakes on the Cub which hold me for runup and for maneuvering. That is all I figure I need them for. With vortex generators my landing speed is supposedly 23 mph so I am stopped on my own in a couple hundred feet, even on pavement. Plus, a Cub comes with a built-in headwind. I was passed by a Pietenpol when leaving Brodhead last year. I like being able to keep my attention outside the cockpit on the ground with hand on throttle and stick.Mike P., good thread. I would suggest you get a couple of hours dual in a Cub so you get a feel for heel brakes and have some fun."I knew she wasn't worth top billing."-john-John HofmannVice-President, Information TechnologyThe Rees Group, Inc.2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800Madison, WI 53718Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150Fax: 608.443.2474Email: jhofmann(at)reesgroupinc.comOn Feb 11, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Phillips, Jack wrote:> Did you ever notice historically that airplanes quit using big > spoked wheels at about the same time they started using brakes? It > takes A LOT of braking torque to stop a big wheel. I=92ve got 8=94 > Cleveland hydraulic brakes on my Pietenpol, with 21=94 wheels. The > brakes are adequate to hold it for a run-up, but won=92t quite hold it > still at full power. If I get on the brakes HARD right after > touchdown, it still takes a couple hundred feet to stop the > airplane. I don=92t know that you would find much difference between > mechanical or hydraulic brakes. I=92ve flown Mike Cuy=92s Pietenpol, > and he has 19=94 wheels with mechanical brakes, with about the same > effectiveness as mine. They are useful for a run-up and for taxiing > and turning tight corners. Really, they are perfectly adequate, but > nothing like you get with small wheels.>> Whatever you use, drum or disc, use the biggest drum or disc you can > find. Look at the size of the disc on a Harley. I=92ll bet those > discs are 12=94 in diameter, and they get excellent stopping power on > a vehicle that weighs about what a Pietenpol does (or less)>> Jack Phillips> NX899JP>
> Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Pietenpol-List: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
This is how I mounted my motorcycle hand brakes up under the rear panel. In asharp taxi turn I can grab one of them to help swing the tail. In a run up Ican grab the left one with my middle finger and the right one with my thumb ofmy right hand while my left hand does the throttle. I rarely use them for anythingother than that and taxiing around stuff on pavement because the tall highpressure wheels do tend to roll. I have never used them for landing.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
This is how I mounted my motorcycle hand brakes up under the rear panel. In asharp taxi turn I can grab one of them to help swing the tail. In a run up Ican grab the left one with my middle finger and the right one with my thumb ofmy right hand while my left hand does the throttle. I rarely use them for anythingother than that and taxiing around stuff on pavement because the tall highpressure wheels do tend to roll. I have never used them for landing.Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
Original Posted By: "mike"
Here is a shot of the drum brakes...Don E.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn ... __________
Here is a shot of the drum brakes...Don E.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscn ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals> > The wheels and brakes on 41CC are 6.00x6s off an older Cessna 172> > (I believe), so I have pretty much all the stopping power I'll > ever need,> > with only gentle to moderate toe pedal pressure. I like them very > much> but I learned to fly in a Cub with expander tube heel brakes and was> > taught not to depend on brakes for much so I don't.> > > > Side note to Steve Dortch: I learned to fly, and flew my first > solo, out> > of Tims Airpark north of Austin. The airplane rented, wet, for $8/hr.> > Back then, it was a sleepy little place with no traffic and a long way> > from downtown. We'd fly over to Bird's Nest for some grass practice,> > I think it was.> > > > Oscar Zuniga> > Air Camper NX41CC> > San Antonio, TX> > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com> > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals> > The wheels and brakes on 41CC are 6.00x6s off an older Cessna 172> > (I believe), so I have pretty much all the stopping power I'll > ever need,> > with only gentle to moderate toe pedal pressure. I like them very > much> but I learned to fly in a Cub with expander tube heel brakes and was> > taught not to depend on brakes for much so I don't.> > > > Side note to Steve Dortch: I learned to fly, and flew my first > solo, out> > of Tims Airpark north of Austin. The airplane rented, wet, for $8/hr.> > Back then, it was a sleepy little place with no traffic and a long way> > from downtown. We'd fly over to Bird's Nest for some grass practice,> > I think it was.> > > > Oscar Zuniga> > Air Camper NX41CC> > San Antonio, TX> > mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com> > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net> > ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB"
The wheels and brakes on 41CC are 6.00x6s off an older Cessna 172(I believe)=2C so I have pretty much all the stopping power I'll ever need=2Cwith only gentle to moderate toe pedal pressure. I like them very muchbut I learned to fly in a Cub with expander tube heel brakes and wastaught not to depend on brakes for much so I don't.Side note to Steve Dortch: I learned to fly=2C and flew my first solo=2C outof Tims Airpark north of Austin. The airplane rented=2C wet=2C for $8/hr.Back then=2C it was a sleepy little place with no traffic and a long wayfrom downtown. We'd fly over to Bird's Nest for some grass practice=2CI think it was.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
The wheels and brakes on 41CC are 6.00x6s off an older Cessna 172(I believe)=2C so I have pretty much all the stopping power I'll ever need=2Cwith only gentle to moderate toe pedal pressure. I like them very muchbut I learned to fly in a Cub with expander tube heel brakes and wastaught not to depend on brakes for much so I don't.Side note to Steve Dortch: I learned to fly=2C and flew my first solo=2C outof Tims Airpark north of Austin. The airplane rented=2C wet=2C for $8/hr.Back then=2C it was a sleepy little place with no traffic and a long wayfrom downtown. We'd fly over to Bird's Nest for some grass practice=2CI think it was.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedalsJust a note. One popular modification on Stearmans was to replace the effectivebrakes with brakes from a Willys jeep. You could lock the origional brakes andput the plane on it's nose ruining a prop and engine. The jeep brakes were muchless effective and as a result reduced the chance to put the plane on it'snose. Anyone who had had an older jeep will testify to the poor brakes. Oscar, I have 4 months before I have to move. If I throw your name around Austinwill that help or hurt my efforts to find a hanger/airport home? For the forseeablefuture I will stay at 8T8. I have a great hanger and it is about 2 hoursdrive from Austin. That gives me the ability to find a good hanger/airport.Having the A/C and heated office to sleep in helps. Blue Skies,Steve D----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedalsJust a note. One popular modification on Stearmans was to replace the effectivebrakes with brakes from a Willys jeep. You could lock the origional brakes andput the plane on it's nose ruining a prop and engine. The jeep brakes were muchless effective and as a result reduced the chance to put the plane on it'snose. Anyone who had had an older jeep will testify to the poor brakes. Oscar, I have 4 months before I have to move. If I throw your name around Austinwill that help or hurt my efforts to find a hanger/airport home? For the forseeablefuture I will stay at 8T8. I have a great hanger and it is about 2 hoursdrive from Austin. That gives me the ability to find a good hanger/airport.Having the A/C and heated office to sleep in helps. Blue Skies,Steve D----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
Original Posted By: "Don Emch"
Steve=3BIf you throw my name around the Austin area and include fifty cents=2Cyou'll be able to buy a cup of coffee. Cream and sugar will be extra though.My name is pretty much meaningless in Austin=2C and only marginally betteranywhere else=2C including around my house =3Bo) However=2C there is a guyname of Eric Overton in Austin=2C who is building a WWI biplane replicawith Corvair power and he might be of some help to you.contact(at)overtonphoto.comOscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
Steve=3BIf you throw my name around the Austin area and include fifty cents=2Cyou'll be able to buy a cup of coffee. Cream and sugar will be extra though.My name is pretty much meaningless in Austin=2C and only marginally betteranywhere else=2C including around my house =3Bo) However=2C there is a guyname of Eric Overton in Austin=2C who is building a WWI biplane replicawith Corvair power and he might be of some help to you.contact(at)overtonphoto.comOscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hand Brake Pictures
Original Posted By: "Dick N."
Good eye Oscar!No, It's a really long story but I had a hangar collapse on the plane so I hadto pull the wings off and take it home and do some rebuilding. When I did that,in order to pull the cables through the center section they couldn't have theturnbuckle ends on them so I cut the cables. When it came time to put thewings back on the simple answer was to just thread them back through the centersection and add a little length to the cable from where I cut them. SomedayI'll make new cables but since I love to talk Pietenpols it's kinda fun to leaveit that way so people ask about it and strike up some Piet conversation!Come to think of it, Oscar you know a little about rebuilding these things too!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Good eye Oscar!No, It's a really long story but I had a hangar collapse on the plane so I hadto pull the wings off and take it home and do some rebuilding. When I did that,in order to pull the cables through the center section they couldn't have theturnbuckle ends on them so I cut the cables. When it came time to put thewings back on the simple answer was to just thread them back through the centersection and add a little length to the cable from where I cut them. SomedayI'll make new cables but since I love to talk Pietenpols it's kinda fun to leaveit that way so people ask about it and strike up some Piet conversation!Come to think of it, Oscar you know a little about rebuilding these things too!Don EmchNX899DERead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Heel brake pedals
Original Posted By: Phillips, Jack
I am running Harley wheels and brakes on both Piet's. The new one has Harley calipers also. I can hold brakes to full run up power. I have a single brake grip on the stick. I just have to remember not to apply brakes to hard at fast taxi. I'm afraid it might give me a nose over.I fully agree with Mike's post, lots of caution to stay out of those dangerous situationsDick N. ----- Original Message -----
I am running Harley wheels and brakes on both Piet's. The new one has Harley calipers also. I can hold brakes to full run up power. I have a single brake grip on the stick. I just have to remember not to apply brakes to hard at fast taxi. I'm afraid it might give me a nose over.I fully agree with Mike's post, lots of caution to stay out of those dangerous situationsDick N. ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Original Posted By: "jimd"
Pieters=3BI have conducted a test to determine the relative weightsof conventional Poly-Fiber finishes as compared with latexhouse paint. The complete test methodology=2C data=2C photos=2Cand conclusions are posted on my website athttp://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/paint/paint.htmlbut here are the highlights:1. Finishing an Air Camper through silver will add about17 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric.2. Finishing an Air Camper through color coats with Poly-Tonewill add about 27 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric.3. Finishing an Air Camper using latex house paint to thethickness recommended on the paint can will add about 15 lbs.to the airplane as compared to bare fabric ***BUT*** if youapply it to the thickness that I recommend for proper UVprotection=2C it will be about the same weight as Poly-Fiberfinishes through color coat.I was quite surprised at how soft and pliable the latex-paintedfabric ended up compared with the Poly-Fiber finishes=2C and ifyou like your fabric to be nice and drum-tight=2C you won't get itwith latex. However=2C it should be just as strong and have justas long a life (the underlying fabric is exactly the same)... atlower cost and with little or no fumes or cleanup mess.Let the flaming begin.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Pieters=3BI have conducted a test to determine the relative weightsof conventional Poly-Fiber finishes as compared with latexhouse paint. The complete test methodology=2C data=2C photos=2Cand conclusions are posted on my website athttp://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/paint/paint.htmlbut here are the highlights:1. Finishing an Air Camper through silver will add about17 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric.2. Finishing an Air Camper through color coats with Poly-Tonewill add about 27 lbs. to the airplane as compared to bare fabric.3. Finishing an Air Camper using latex house paint to thethickness recommended on the paint can will add about 15 lbs.to the airplane as compared to bare fabric ***BUT*** if youapply it to the thickness that I recommend for proper UVprotection=2C it will be about the same weight as Poly-Fiberfinishes through color coat.I was quite surprised at how soft and pliable the latex-paintedfabric ended up compared with the Poly-Fiber finishes=2C and ifyou like your fabric to be nice and drum-tight=2C you won't get itwith latex. However=2C it should be just as strong and have justas long a life (the underlying fabric is exactly the same)... atlower cost and with little or no fumes or cleanup mess.Let the flaming begin.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio=2C TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Hi Oscar,Don't have anything to flame you about, I also am using Valspar latex. It complementsStewart Systems EkoBond fabric cement very well. You have to kind of pushthe latex through the fabric though to be sure and get it really bonded. Stewart Systems uses a latex based stuff they call EkoFill (as a base for theirwaterborne polyurethane), which has something like carbon black in it to blockUV. However the Valspar works well, and most the Latex paints have had far moretesting than any other type of paint, as there is such a huge market for housepaint.My project came with a few gallons of each of the Stits Polyfiber paint supplies,but I didn't have the wings ready to use them and they have about a two yearexpiration date on them and some of mine were twice that when I got them andold enough now not to trust them at all.The fabric cement is not that expensive (about $130 a gallon, think one will domy biplane wings). Had fabric already and other supplies, but when I ran thenumbers for getting new Stits materials, or new Stewart Systems or doing a mixof it with Latex it came out about $2500 for Stits, about $1800-2000 for StewartSystems, or I could use EkoBond and Latex for about $400. The suprising thingto me about it the costs was that so much of it was for the pinked fabrictape, that stuff is expensive and you need it in a number of sizes.Anyway, keep at it, I will be doing some experimenting well before I put most thepaint on my plane. I have been finishing it through primer and then movingon so far. Can't leave it with the Ekobond and fabric as it is just tacky enoughto gather dust from everywhere, but the primer doesn't attract dust very much.JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:42:37 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Hi Oscar,Don't have anything to flame you about, I also am using Valspar latex. It complementsStewart Systems EkoBond fabric cement very well. You have to kind of pushthe latex through the fabric though to be sure and get it really bonded. Stewart Systems uses a latex based stuff they call EkoFill (as a base for theirwaterborne polyurethane), which has something like carbon black in it to blockUV. However the Valspar works well, and most the Latex paints have had far moretesting than any other type of paint, as there is such a huge market for housepaint.My project came with a few gallons of each of the Stits Polyfiber paint supplies,but I didn't have the wings ready to use them and they have about a two yearexpiration date on them and some of mine were twice that when I got them andold enough now not to trust them at all.The fabric cement is not that expensive (about $130 a gallon, think one will domy biplane wings). Had fabric already and other supplies, but when I ran thenumbers for getting new Stits materials, or new Stewart Systems or doing a mixof it with Latex it came out about $2500 for Stits, about $1800-2000 for StewartSystems, or I could use EkoBond and Latex for about $400. The suprising thingto me about it the costs was that so much of it was for the pinked fabrictape, that stuff is expensive and you need it in a number of sizes.Anyway, keep at it, I will be doing some experimenting well before I put most thepaint on my plane. I have been finishing it through primer and then movingon so far. Can't leave it with the Ekobond and fabric as it is just tacky enoughto gather dust from everywhere, but the primer doesn't attract dust very much.JimRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:42:37 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Re: Pietenpol-List: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Original Posted By: Rick Holland
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: weight of Poly-Fiber vs. latex