Original Posted By: "Tim Cunningham"
For those that have asked about my spring gear, here is a site you can useto see how it looks. http://members.home.net/copinfo/spring1.jpg I boughtthe $80.00 a pair spring set from Aircraft Spruce. All I got was these twobig springs and instructions on how to fabricate them. The $170.00 Wag-AeroSprings look similar and I'm sure by the wording you probably have tofabricate them too. I changed their design a bit and they do work great.In fact they are probably strong enough to handle a hard landing with anF-16. I looked at the bungees and decided to go this way. I would highlyrecommend it. Duane from Salt Lake had a similar but tiny spring set up onhis Subaru powered Piet. I've landed in lots of rough fields and they holdup fine. E-mail for more info.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Tim Cunningham [SMTP:copinfo(at)home.com]
TimDoes the tube coming from the center of the plane to the spring have a slotcut in it to allow the top spring collar and bolt to slide down?Marc Davis-----Original Message-----
TimDoes the tube coming from the center of the plane to the spring have a slotcut in it to allow the top spring collar and bolt to slide down?Marc Davis-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Rich
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Davis, Marc
Marc,Are you located in North Mississippi?Thanks, Larry----- Original Message -----
Marc,Are you located in North Mississippi?Thanks, Larry----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Davis, Marc
Look at: http://members.home.net/copinfo/springd.jpg to see the frabricationdrawing I got with the springs from Aircraft Spruce. If it looks bad, it'sbecause it is. That's the quality of the drawing. The hole in the springis 1 inch, so I bought some 1 inch stock, a couple of big washers a collarand welded it up. Again, the springs are way more than you need. Duane'swere tiny and if I had to do it over I would get some smaller ones. Myballoon tires take most of the shock anyway. The springs are so much easierto deal with than the bungees and they don't rot. If I left the Piet out inthe weather for 1000 years, the engine crank shaft and these springs wouldstill be laying on the ramp after the rest of the plane rotted away. Ihighly recommend this method. That goes for J-3 owners too. When thebungee goes you're crazy to think a little safety cable is going to saveyou.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510----- Original Message -----
Look at: http://members.home.net/copinfo/springd.jpg to see the frabricationdrawing I got with the springs from Aircraft Spruce. If it looks bad, it'sbecause it is. That's the quality of the drawing. The hole in the springis 1 inch, so I bought some 1 inch stock, a couple of big washers a collarand welded it up. Again, the springs are way more than you need. Duane'swere tiny and if I had to do it over I would get some smaller ones. Myballoon tires take most of the shock anyway. The springs are so much easierto deal with than the bungees and they don't rot. If I left the Piet out inthe weather for 1000 years, the engine crank shaft and these springs wouldstill be laying on the ramp after the rest of the plane rotted away. Ihighly recommend this method. That goes for J-3 owners too. When thebungee goes you're crazy to think a little safety cable is going to saveyou.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: COZYPILOT(at)aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearAl:Let me have a picture or some design of your spring landing gear. I amtrying to make up my mind on what kind of gear to use. I built a stewartheadwind bout ten yrs ago and it used rubber bushings as the compressionstrut setup. How is your landing gear designed and where and how is thecompression strut located anchored!Steve writes:> > > Another source for springs:> I bought Lamina brand die springs from Precision Punch and Plastics> 6100 Blue Circle Drive> $36.00 per pair Minnetonka, MN 55343> 612-933-0993> 800-227-0690> > They have a specification catalog of all of the die springs with> measurements, and amount of deflection for different loadings. I > used the> heavy duty H-56 model, although you could also use the XH-56 extra > heavy> duty model. The cost was $36.00 per pair. There is a drawing of > the> assembly in the Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter #6 page 2. It was > designed by> Sy Debolt based on a note to him from Mr. Pietenpol in 1974, where > Bernard> said he had used a spring from a plow (Debolt specified the H-56 > Lamina).> Bernard also enclosed his in some sort of tube. (More fuel for the > fire on> what constitutes a true Pietenpol? Bernard always was > experimenting).> There is an alternate design for a compression spring gear in > Bingelis's> book "The Sportplane Builder" on page 255. Very similar to the > Debolt design.> > I am just now building my gear, so I can't say how well it will > work, but I> decided against Bungees for the same reason as Tim spoke of.> > Al Swanson> > > > >> >Look at: http://members.home.net/copinfo/springd.jpg to see the > frabrication> >drawing I got with the springs from Aircraft Spruce. If it looks > bad, it's> >because it is. That's the quality of the drawing. The hole in the > spring> >is 1 inch, so I bought some 1 inch stock, a couple of big washers a > collar> >and welded it up. Again, the springs are way more than you need. > Duane's> > (Snip)> >> >> > > > > Steve W GN-1 builderIHA #6________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearAl:Let me have a picture or some design of your spring landing gear. I amtrying to make up my mind on what kind of gear to use. I built a stewartheadwind bout ten yrs ago and it used rubber bushings as the compressionstrut setup. How is your landing gear designed and where and how is thecompression strut located anchored!Steve writes:> > > Another source for springs:> I bought Lamina brand die springs from Precision Punch and Plastics> 6100 Blue Circle Drive> $36.00 per pair Minnetonka, MN 55343> 612-933-0993> 800-227-0690> > They have a specification catalog of all of the die springs with> measurements, and amount of deflection for different loadings. I > used the> heavy duty H-56 model, although you could also use the XH-56 extra > heavy> duty model. The cost was $36.00 per pair. There is a drawing of > the> assembly in the Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter #6 page 2. It was > designed by> Sy Debolt based on a note to him from Mr. Pietenpol in 1974, where > Bernard> said he had used a spring from a plow (Debolt specified the H-56 > Lamina).> Bernard also enclosed his in some sort of tube. (More fuel for the > fire on> what constitutes a true Pietenpol? Bernard always was > experimenting).> There is an alternate design for a compression spring gear in > Bingelis's> book "The Sportplane Builder" on page 255. Very similar to the > Debolt design.> > I am just now building my gear, so I can't say how well it will > work, but I> decided against Bungees for the same reason as Tim spoke of.> > Al Swanson> > > > >> >Look at: http://members.home.net/copinfo/springd.jpg to see the > frabrication> >drawing I got with the springs from Aircraft Spruce. If it looks > bad, it's> >because it is. That's the quality of the drawing. The hole in the > spring> >is 1 inch, so I bought some 1 inch stock, a couple of big washers a > collar> >and welded it up. Again, the springs are way more than you need. > Duane's> > (Snip)> >> >> > > > > Steve W GN-1 builderIHA #6________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Michael King
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearThe Lamina Die Springs are excellant springs, I am a tool maker and they are the only springs I use.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:29:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearThe Lamina Die Springs are excellant springs, I am a tool maker and they are the only springs I use.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:29:59 -0600
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By:> Davis, Marc
Marc, How far along are you? I am in Kalama, WA. Maybe we could look ateach others project and compare notes. I am using the Jenny style gear andModel A engine.Phil Phillips----------
Marc, How far along are you? I am in Kalama, WA. Maybe we could look ateach others project and compare notes. I am using the Jenny style gear andModel A engine.Phil Phillips----------
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Larry Pasley [SMTP:larrypasley(at)prodigy.net]
Hi LarryI'm in Portland ORMarc-----Original Message-----
Hi LarryI'm in Portland ORMarc-----Original Message-----
> Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Jim Sury
> RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By:>> Tim Cunningham [SMTP:copinfo(at)home.com]
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearTim, An eighth inch safety cable will support an airplane if the bungee cordsbreak. I used to have a pilot in the company Pawnee that was alwayslanding hard and breaking the bungees and the cable I made up andinstalled saved that prop many times. Incidently, the boss finally gottired of it and fired the pilot.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.comwrites:>>>Look at: http://members.home.net/copinfo/springd.jpg to see the >frabrication>drawing I got with the springs from Aircraft Spruce. If it looks bad, >it's>because it is. That's the quality of the drawing. The hole in the >spring>is 1 inch, so I bought some 1 inch stock, a couple of big washers a >collar>and welded it up. Again, the springs are way more than you need. >Duane's>were tiny and if I had to do it over I would get some smaller ones. >My>balloon tires take most of the shock anyway. The springs are so much >easier>to deal with than the bungees and they don't rot. If I left the Piet >out in>the weather for 1000 years, the engine crank shaft and these springs >would>still be laying on the ramp after the rest of the plane rotted away. >I>highly recommend this method. That goes for J-3 owners too. When >the>bungee goes you're crazy to think a little safety cable is going to >save>you.>Copinfo(at)home.com>Tim Cunningham>Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>----- Original Message ----->From: Davis, Marc >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:28 PM>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear>>>>>>> Tim>>>> Does the tube coming from the center of the plane to the spring have >a>slot>> cut in it to allow the top spring collar and bolt to slide down?>>>> Marc Davis>>>> -----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearTim, An eighth inch safety cable will support an airplane if the bungee cordsbreak. I used to have a pilot in the company Pawnee that was alwayslanding hard and breaking the bungees and the cable I made up andinstalled saved that prop many times. Incidently, the boss finally gottired of it and fired the pilot.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.comwrites:>>>Look at: http://members.home.net/copinfo/springd.jpg to see the >frabrication>drawing I got with the springs from Aircraft Spruce. If it looks bad, >it's>because it is. That's the quality of the drawing. The hole in the >spring>is 1 inch, so I bought some 1 inch stock, a couple of big washers a >collar>and welded it up. Again, the springs are way more than you need. >Duane's>were tiny and if I had to do it over I would get some smaller ones. >My>balloon tires take most of the shock anyway. The springs are so much >easier>to deal with than the bungees and they don't rot. If I left the Piet >out in>the weather for 1000 years, the engine crank shaft and these springs >would>still be laying on the ramp after the rest of the plane rotted away. >I>highly recommend this method. That goes for J-3 owners too. When >the>bungee goes you're crazy to think a little safety cable is going to >save>you.>Copinfo(at)home.com>Tim Cunningham>Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>----- Original Message ----->From: Davis, Marc >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 5:28 PM>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear>>>>>>> Tim>>>> Does the tube coming from the center of the plane to the spring have >a>slot>> cut in it to allow the top spring collar and bolt to slide down?>>>> Marc Davis>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Michael Conkling"
I know all about the so called safety cable. It's suppose to work, but I'veseen a lot of damaged airplanes when the bungee broke and so did the cable.I don't think the bungees would break if they were replaced every year. IfI did bungees I'd change them every six months just to be safe. I also makesure I stick with a wood prop so if the gear ever goes the prop strike won'tdestroy the crank and case. I say that and then I have a metal prop on myGrumman and it has the worst looking gear I've ever seem. If I had it to doover again I would get smaller springs locally. At the time ACS ones werethe only ones I could find. Heck they want $90.00 for a pair now. That'snot a very good price for us Impoverished Homebuilders.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510> Tim,> An eighth inch safety cable will support an airplane if the bungee cords> break.> John Langston> Pipe Creek, TX> nle97(at)juno.com________________________________________________________________________________
I know all about the so called safety cable. It's suppose to work, but I'veseen a lot of damaged airplanes when the bungee broke and so did the cable.I don't think the bungees would break if they were replaced every year. IfI did bungees I'd change them every six months just to be safe. I also makesure I stick with a wood prop so if the gear ever goes the prop strike won'tdestroy the crank and case. I say that and then I have a metal prop on myGrumman and it has the worst looking gear I've ever seem. If I had it to doover again I would get smaller springs locally. At the time ACS ones werethe only ones I could find. Heck they want $90.00 for a pair now. That'snot a very good price for us Impoverished Homebuilders.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510> Tim,> An eighth inch safety cable will support an airplane if the bungee cords> break.> John Langston> Pipe Creek, TX> nle97(at)juno.com________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
I have a landing gear vee from a 46-47 T-Craft that also has 1/4" bungeesafety cable.Mike C.P.P., KS----- Original Message -----
I have a landing gear vee from a 46-47 T-Craft that also has 1/4" bungeesafety cable.Mike C.P.P., KS----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Ken, if you want an engine like that I know where you can get a 65 horseLycoming that is in Canada for the same price. Let me know and I'll get theinfo for you. His name is Joe Antal and he builds Luscombs.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510----- Original Message -----
Ken, if you want an engine like that I know where you can get a 65 horseLycoming that is in Canada for the same price. Let me know and I'll get theinfo for you. His name is Joe Antal and he builds Luscombs.Copinfo(at)home.comTim CunninghamDes Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
> Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...
Original Posted By: "mboynton(at)excite.com
I am also looking for something in the 65 - 100 range. I'm located in NC.>From: "Tim Cunningham" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:02:32 -0600>>>Ken, if you want an engine like that I know where you can get a 65 horse>Lycoming that is in Canada for the same price. Let me know and I'll get >the>info for you. His name is Joe Antal and he builds Luscombs.>>Copinfo(at)home.com>Tim Cunningham>Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>----- Original Message ----->From: Ken Beanlands >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 4:12 PM>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...>>>> >> > I found on under "Piston Engines" /> > "Franklin":> >> > TRADE!! .. 80 hp. Franklin engine, NO log books ..> > Very clean inside, shows no excessive wear, looks to be> > STD Rebuildable antique .. Engine Core alone, no> > starter, mags, or carb. $400 + shipping .. Might take> > some trades .. Contact Marty Nelson, Owner - NELSON'S> > FLYING SERVICE located Prescott Valley AZ USA.> > Telephone: 520-775-0523. Fax: 520-775-0468. -- Posted 15> > December 1999> >> > For that price, it's certainly in the Impoverished builders budget.> >> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)> > Calgary, Alberta, Canada> > Christavia MK 1 C-GREN> > > >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
I am also looking for something in the 65 - 100 range. I'm located in NC.>From: "Tim Cunningham" >Reply-To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>To: >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:02:32 -0600>>>Ken, if you want an engine like that I know where you can get a 65 horse>Lycoming that is in Canada for the same price. Let me know and I'll get >the>info for you. His name is Joe Antal and he builds Luscombs.>>Copinfo(at)home.com>Tim Cunningham>Des Moines, Iowa (515) 237-1510>----- Original Message ----->From: Ken Beanlands >To: Pietenpol Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 4:12 PM>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...>>>> >> > I found on under "Piston Engines" /> > "Franklin":> >> > TRADE!! .. 80 hp. Franklin engine, NO log books ..> > Very clean inside, shows no excessive wear, looks to be> > STD Rebuildable antique .. Engine Core alone, no> > starter, mags, or carb. $400 + shipping .. Might take> > some trades .. Contact Marty Nelson, Owner - NELSON'S> > FLYING SERVICE located Prescott Valley AZ USA.> > Telephone: 520-775-0523. Fax: 520-775-0468. -- Posted 15> > December 1999> >> > For that price, it's certainly in the Impoverished builders budget.> >> > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)> > Calgary, Alberta, Canada> > Christavia MK 1 C-GREN> > > >> >>>________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...
Original Posted By: nle97(at)juno.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...Ken and any others...Being that I live in Arizona, not far from Prescott, I went ahead and calledMarty, the owner of the Franklin engine. He has no idea how many hours areon the engine, but he has pulled two of the cylinders and says they and thepistons show very little wear, and that overall, the engine looks to be invery good shape. Its a 4AC-176F3.If it has any life left in it, I'd like to make a run up to Prescotttomorrow morning and buy it. My question is, not being a mechanic and nothaving the mic's, calipers and tools necessary, what do I look for todetermine if this is an engine I should buy. I know there's not a lot I cando/look for, but there must be something I can do. What would yourecommend.Mark BoyntonGilbert, AZ wrote:> > I found on under "Piston Engines" /> "Franklin":> > TRADE!! .. 80 hp. Franklin engine, NO log books ..> Very clean inside, shows no excessive wear, looks to be> STD Rebuildable antique .. Engine Core alone, no> starter, mags, or carb. $400 + shipping .. Might take> some trades .. Contact Marty Nelson, Owner - NELSON'S> FLYING SERVICE located Prescott Valley AZ USA.> Telephone: 520-775-0523. Fax: 520-775-0468. -- Posted 15> December 1999> > For that price, it's certainly in the Impoverished builders budget. > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)> Calgary, Alberta, Canada> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN> > > > > > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...Ken and any others...Being that I live in Arizona, not far from Prescott, I went ahead and calledMarty, the owner of the Franklin engine. He has no idea how many hours areon the engine, but he has pulled two of the cylinders and says they and thepistons show very little wear, and that overall, the engine looks to be invery good shape. Its a 4AC-176F3.If it has any life left in it, I'd like to make a run up to Prescotttomorrow morning and buy it. My question is, not being a mechanic and nothaving the mic's, calipers and tools necessary, what do I look for todetermine if this is an engine I should buy. I know there's not a lot I cando/look for, but there must be something I can do. What would yourecommend.Mark BoyntonGilbert, AZ wrote:> > I found on under "Piston Engines" /> "Franklin":> > TRADE!! .. 80 hp. Franklin engine, NO log books ..> Very clean inside, shows no excessive wear, looks to be> STD Rebuildable antique .. Engine Core alone, no> starter, mags, or carb. $400 + shipping .. Might take> some trades .. Contact Marty Nelson, Owner - NELSON'S> FLYING SERVICE located Prescott Valley AZ USA.> Telephone: 520-775-0523. Fax: 520-775-0468. -- Posted 15> December 1999> > For that price, it's certainly in the Impoverished builders budget. > > Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)> Calgary, Alberta, Canada> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN> > > > > > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...
Original Posted By: Ken Beanlands
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...Mark, I've overhauled over a hundred aircraft engines over the years but havevery little experience on Franklin engines. I did have a couple ofcylinders repaired about three years ago on a 165 HP Franklin in aStinson Station Wagon -- it cost an arm and a leg. Generally speaking, aircraft engines will wear their pistons out. Mostof the wear will be at the top compression ring groove. Another bad weararea is the up and down measurement of the piston pin hole. On thestandard Lycoming and Continental engines that have gone through alltheir standard TBO hours, I don't even bother to measure the pistons; Ijust throw them in a scrap bin. Any time you see a log book with anoverhaul that did not replace the pistons you can bet it has beenassembled with worn out parts. The same goes for a camshaft. Alwaysreplace the camshaft or have it reground. I got burned on a groundcamshaft years ago and I am still leary of them although I have used themsince and have had no problems. It is much cheaper to have one groundthan to buy a new one. An exception to this is the smaller engines which don't seem to be ashard on the pistons, I suspose due to lower RPMs. I really haven'toverhauled many of the smaller engines and the ones I did were really amess requiring nearly everything to be replaced. Another exception isthe Pratt & Whitney radials. I've top overhauled a couple R-985s and aR-1340 and found all the pistons to be in good condition. Again, aradial doesn't turn the RPMs the newer oppossed engines do and they don'tseem to work as hard so that is probably why the pistons last. Franklin engines went bankrupt in '76 and their assets were sold off atauction being bought by PZL in Poland. Communist Poland was trying veryhard to get into the aviation market and they also produced an engine toreplace the R-1340 which was commonly used in crop dusters. The engineswere evidently very reliable from what I've heard (I've never seen one),but the overhaul prices were horrendous, especially for the radial. Ihaven't heard much about the Franklins but someone on this site said theyhad a little Franklin overhauled for about $7000.00 which is very high. An A-65 in reasonably good condition should be able to be overhauled forabout $5000.00. The first homebuilt I ever went up in was a Volmer Sportsman amphibianpowered by a 100 HP Franklin. The engine was very smooth and seemedpowerful enough. As with other Franklins I've worked on, this one ran athigher RPMs that what we're used to in Continantals and Lycomings, so Iwould suspect the pistons. On any overhaul with a run out engine I will replace the pistons, pistonpins, rocker arm shafts, camshaft, lifters, exhaust valves, valvekeepers, rod bushings, rocker arm bushings, and have the cylindersoverhauled, either ground out oversized or usually chromed. OnContinantal engines the cylinders will always be worn out. A first runLycoming might be OK. I will never even look at a Lycoming oil pump; Ijust throw it away. I wish I had more to say on the Franklins, but I just haven't worked onthem all that much. I believe a Franklin was a very reliable engine andwould give you good service, but beware of overhaul costs. As far as thepower they developed, I don't know. I've worked on many Cubs and suchthat had had Franklins installed during manufacture, but these engineshad since been replaced with the Continentals. The Continentalsdefinately produced more power through torque than did the 65 HPLycomings. I hope this informationhas been of some help to you. Feel free to askany more questions and I'll try to help.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.com vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP for" ;writes:>vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP for >;>>Ken and any others...>>Being that I live in Arizona, not far from Prescott, I went ahead and >called>Marty, the owner of the Franklin engine. He has no idea how many >hours are>on the engine, but he has pulled two of the cylinders and says they >and the>pistons show very little wear, and that overall, the engine looks to >be in>very good shape. Its a 4AC-176F3.>>If it has any life left in it, I'd like to make a run up to Prescott>tomorrow morning and buy it. My question is, not being a mechanic and >not>having the mic's, calipers and tools necessary, what do I look for to>determine if this is an engine I should buy. I know there's not a lot >I can>do/look for, but there must be something I can do. What would you>recommend.>>Mark Boynton>Gilbert, AZ >>>pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>wrote:>>>> >> I found on under "Piston >Engines" />> "Franklin":>> >> TRADE!! .. 80 hp. Franklin engine, NO log books ..>> Very clean inside, shows no excessive wear, looks to be>> STD Rebuildable antique .. Engine Core alone, no>> starter, mags, or carb. $400 + shipping .. Might take>> some trades .. Contact Marty Nelson, Owner - NELSON'S>> FLYING SERVICE located Prescott Valley AZ USA.>> Telephone: 520-775-0523. Fax: 520-775-0468. -- Posted 15>> December 1999>> >> For that price, it's certainly in the Impoverished builders budget. >>> >> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)>> Calgary, Alberta, Canada>> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN>> >> >> >> >> >> >>>Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season>>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj._______ ... ______Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:42:16 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Neat engine for Piet...Mark, I've overhauled over a hundred aircraft engines over the years but havevery little experience on Franklin engines. I did have a couple ofcylinders repaired about three years ago on a 165 HP Franklin in aStinson Station Wagon -- it cost an arm and a leg. Generally speaking, aircraft engines will wear their pistons out. Mostof the wear will be at the top compression ring groove. Another bad weararea is the up and down measurement of the piston pin hole. On thestandard Lycoming and Continental engines that have gone through alltheir standard TBO hours, I don't even bother to measure the pistons; Ijust throw them in a scrap bin. Any time you see a log book with anoverhaul that did not replace the pistons you can bet it has beenassembled with worn out parts. The same goes for a camshaft. Alwaysreplace the camshaft or have it reground. I got burned on a groundcamshaft years ago and I am still leary of them although I have used themsince and have had no problems. It is much cheaper to have one groundthan to buy a new one. An exception to this is the smaller engines which don't seem to be ashard on the pistons, I suspose due to lower RPMs. I really haven'toverhauled many of the smaller engines and the ones I did were really amess requiring nearly everything to be replaced. Another exception isthe Pratt & Whitney radials. I've top overhauled a couple R-985s and aR-1340 and found all the pistons to be in good condition. Again, aradial doesn't turn the RPMs the newer oppossed engines do and they don'tseem to work as hard so that is probably why the pistons last. Franklin engines went bankrupt in '76 and their assets were sold off atauction being bought by PZL in Poland. Communist Poland was trying veryhard to get into the aviation market and they also produced an engine toreplace the R-1340 which was commonly used in crop dusters. The engineswere evidently very reliable from what I've heard (I've never seen one),but the overhaul prices were horrendous, especially for the radial. Ihaven't heard much about the Franklins but someone on this site said theyhad a little Franklin overhauled for about $7000.00 which is very high. An A-65 in reasonably good condition should be able to be overhauled forabout $5000.00. The first homebuilt I ever went up in was a Volmer Sportsman amphibianpowered by a 100 HP Franklin. The engine was very smooth and seemedpowerful enough. As with other Franklins I've worked on, this one ran athigher RPMs that what we're used to in Continantals and Lycomings, so Iwould suspect the pistons. On any overhaul with a run out engine I will replace the pistons, pistonpins, rocker arm shafts, camshaft, lifters, exhaust valves, valvekeepers, rod bushings, rocker arm bushings, and have the cylindersoverhauled, either ground out oversized or usually chromed. OnContinantal engines the cylinders will always be worn out. A first runLycoming might be OK. I will never even look at a Lycoming oil pump; Ijust throw it away. I wish I had more to say on the Franklins, but I just haven't worked onthem all that much. I believe a Franklin was a very reliable engine andwould give you good service, but beware of overhaul costs. As far as thepower they developed, I don't know. I've worked on many Cubs and suchthat had had Franklins installed during manufacture, but these engineshad since been replaced with the Continentals. The Continentalsdefinately produced more power through torque than did the 65 HPLycomings. I hope this informationhas been of some help to you. Feel free to askany more questions and I'll try to help.John LangstonPipe Creek, TXnle97(at)juno.com vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP for" ;writes:>vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP for >;>>Ken and any others...>>Being that I live in Arizona, not far from Prescott, I went ahead and >called>Marty, the owner of the Franklin engine. He has no idea how many >hours are>on the engine, but he has pulled two of the cylinders and says they >and the>pistons show very little wear, and that overall, the engine looks to >be in>very good shape. Its a 4AC-176F3.>>If it has any life left in it, I'd like to make a run up to Prescott>tomorrow morning and buy it. My question is, not being a mechanic and >not>having the mic's, calipers and tools necessary, what do I look for to>determine if this is an engine I should buy. I know there's not a lot >I can>do/look for, but there must be something I can do. What would you>recommend.>>Mark Boynton>Gilbert, AZ >>>pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>wrote:>>>> >> I found on under "Piston >Engines" />> "Franklin":>> >> TRADE!! .. 80 hp. Franklin engine, NO log books ..>> Very clean inside, shows no excessive wear, looks to be>> STD Rebuildable antique .. Engine Core alone, no>> starter, mags, or carb. $400 + shipping .. Might take>> some trades .. Contact Marty Nelson, Owner - NELSON'S>> FLYING SERVICE located Prescott Valley AZ USA.>> Telephone: 520-775-0523. Fax: 520-775-0468. -- Posted 15>> December 1999>> >> For that price, it's certainly in the Impoverished builders budget. >>> >> Ken Beanlands B.Eng (Aerospace)>> Calgary, Alberta, Canada>> Christavia MK 1 C-GREN>> >> >> >> >> >> >>>Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season>>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj._______ ... ______Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:42:16 -0700 (MST)
Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
All,Can you assist with a question on spring gear?- The attached photo is from Tony's book.- He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long.- Does that sound like enough travel?Thanks,Jackwww.textors.com=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
All,Can you assist with a question on spring gear?- The attached photo is from Tony's book.- He states that the slot is 1 3/4" long.- Does that sound like enough travel?Thanks,Jackwww.textors.com=0A=0A=0A ________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spring Gear
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spring Gear
Pietenpol-List: Re: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
That probably translates into several inches of travel at the wheels, plus youcan add the compression of the spring to that 1 3/4".--------Mark - working on wingsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spring Gear
That probably translates into several inches of travel at the wheels, plus youcan add the compression of the spring to that 1 3/4".--------Mark - working on wingsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
Never mind... I see that 1 3/4" IS the amount of compression on the spring. Istill wonder how much travel that translates to... surely much more than 1 3/4".--------Mark - working on wingsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:18:43 -0400
Never mind... I see that 1 3/4" IS the amount of compression on the spring. Istill wonder how much travel that translates to... surely much more than 1 3/4".--------Mark - working on wingsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:18:43 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Dan;I salvaged a discarded leather shoe, cut it into patcheswith pinking shears, and attached them to the fabric withWeldwood Contact Cement after cleaning the fabric withsoap and water.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:04:29 -0400
Dan;I salvaged a discarded leather shoe, cut it into patcheswith pinking shears, and attached them to the fabric withWeldwood Contact Cement after cleaning the fabric withsoap and water.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 17:04:29 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Bill,As usual, fantastic information, thanks. I too was going with the straight(do you want mine) axle but feel the split will be better for rough fields.Sorry Mike, Jack, Bill, ET AL. Not being an Engineer and not too bright.Imust not fully understand the operation of the strut. It seems to me nomatter the weight, bounce or spring tension, It looks like the travel willbe limited the slot length. Am I messed up?Thanks!Jack www.textors.com _____
Bill,As usual, fantastic information, thanks. I too was going with the straight(do you want mine) axle but feel the split will be better for rough fields.Sorry Mike, Jack, Bill, ET AL. Not being an Engineer and not too bright.Imust not fully understand the operation of the strut. It seems to me nomatter the weight, bounce or spring tension, It looks like the travel willbe limited the slot length. Am I messed up?Thanks!Jack www.textors.com _____
Pietenpol-List: Re: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Mike Tunnicliffe"
I guess you have probably thought of it-but why don't you just loose assemble itwithout the spring and move it to the ends of the slot and measure it? I'm sureyou can purchase die springs in different lengths as well as many strenghtsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I guess you have probably thought of it-but why don't you just loose assemble itwithout the spring and move it to the ends of the slot and measure it? I'm sureyou can purchase die springs in different lengths as well as many strenghtsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Ken Howe
Perhaps the length of travel is limited by the spring becoming coil bound, and the slot length should suit the springs used. Regards Mike T.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:37:39 -0600
Perhaps the length of travel is limited by the spring becoming coil bound, and the slot length should suit the springs used. Regards Mike T.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:37:39 -0600
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: santiago morete
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: jorge lizarraga
Yep. When in doubt draw it out.Clif"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." ~ Samuel Johnson . Actually if I was at that stage of my project I'd probably draw it out in scale on a sheet of paper with my trusty drafting tools. --Ken________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 22:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
Yep. When in doubt draw it out.Clif"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." ~ Samuel Johnson . Actually if I was at that stage of my project I'd probably draw it out in scale on a sheet of paper with my trusty drafting tools. --Ken________________________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 22:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jeff Boatright
Thanks so much to all, valuable input!Jackwww.textors.comVery close, Jeff.You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the spring.Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to movethe full compression of the spring.That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be.Bill C.-----Original Message-----
Thanks so much to all, valuable input!Jackwww.textors.comVery close, Jeff.You would need to add the diameter of the cross bolt that holds the spring.Since the cross bolt is already in the slot, it will need to be able to movethe full compression of the spring.That will give the MINIMUM length the slot should be.Bill C.-----Original Message-----
Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Jack"
Jack I think I have a set of the spring gear here at the shop, done you could look at. I would need to dig a little but we have one made for the Smith Miniplane. And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But that is all the spring can traval anyway.JerrySky Classic Aircraft----- Original Message -----
Jack I think I have a set of the spring gear here at the shop, done you could look at. I would need to dig a little but we have one made for the Smith Miniplane. And it can only traval as much as the slot is long. But that is all the spring can traval anyway.JerrySky Classic Aircraft----- Original Message -----
RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Re: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: shad bell
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: steven sadler
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: hvandervoo(at)aol.com
List Members,Attached is a picture of Mr. Vitalis Kapler's newly completed Pietenpol. It's very well done with a Ford A engine. Vi did everything possible to keep the weight down. I think he said it weighted 610#. He hasn't flown it yet, but I'm sure he's trying to get it airworthy before the Minnesota winter sets in.Also, Mr. Kapler has sold me his Pietenpol N12939, that he has owned for 23 years. I'm proud to be the next caretaker of this fine old airplane.Perry RhoadsCarlinville,IL.N12939________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:08:40 -0400
List Members,Attached is a picture of Mr. Vitalis Kapler's newly completed Pietenpol. It's very well done with a Ford A engine. Vi did everything possible to keep the weight down. I think he said it weighted 610#. He hasn't flown it yet, but I'm sure he's trying to get it airworthy before the Minnesota winter sets in.Also, Mr. Kapler has sold me his Pietenpol N12939, that he has owned for 23 years. I'm proud to be the next caretaker of this fine old airplane.Perry RhoadsCarlinville,IL.N12939________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:08:40 -0400
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Jim Markle
Re: Pietenpol-List: Vi Kaplar's Pietenpols
Original Posted By: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP"
RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Once again, thanks Bill, Hans, Steve and others, your input is invaluable!What a great resource!Jackwww.textors.comI've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56spring data, highlighted.The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Maxcompressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actuallycompress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible.The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing:http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoD ... spring.jpg &PhotoID 09In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt.There is a note that says the slot should be 1/4" x length to allow for fullcompression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will take2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the minimumslot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice.If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" -1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 poundsper 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slotat a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel.But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sumof the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt(or pin).Bill C. _____
Once again, thanks Bill, Hans, Steve and others, your input is invaluable!What a great resource!Jackwww.textors.comI've attached a JPG image of the Lamina catalog page that shows the H56spring data, highlighted.The maximum recommended operating deflection is 1.68", but the Maxcompressed length is 3.82", which means that the spring can actuallycompress 6 - 3.82 = 2.18". This is not recommended, but is possible.The H-56 Lamina is the spring called for in the Frank Pavliga drawing:http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoD ... spring.jpg &PhotoID 09In that drawing, the arrangement uses a 1/4" diameter cross-bolt.There is a note that says the slot should be 1/4" x length to allow for fullcompression of spring (2 3/4" for H-56).Based on the data from the catalog, full compression of the spring will take2.18" of travel. Add the diameter of the cross bolt (0.25") for the minimumslot length: 2.18 + 0.25 = 2.43". So, a 2 1/2" slot would suffice.If a slot with length of only 1 3/4" is used with the H-56 spring, and a1/4" diameter cross-bolt, the spring will only be able to compress 1 3/4" -1/4" = 1 1/2". Based on the catalog data, the H-56 spring takes 58.4 poundsper 1/10" of deflection, so the landing gear will reach the end of the slotat a loading of 876 pounds. That might not be enough travel.But in general, the slot length should be just slightly longer than the sumof the spring full compression distance plus the diameter of the cross-bolt(or pin).Bill C. _____
RE: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Thanks Jerry, but don't dig too deep...Jack Textor29 SW 58th DriveDes Moines, IA 50312www.textors.com-----Original Message-----
Thanks Jerry, but don't dig too deep...Jack Textor29 SW 58th DriveDes Moines, IA 50312www.textors.com-----Original Message-----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: steven sadler
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
But then you COULD surround them with burl. :-)ClifSeneca: "There is no great genius without a tincture of madness."> I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of> 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube But they > would look stupid. >> Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 22:00:28 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
But then you COULD surround them with burl. :-)ClifSeneca: "There is no great genius without a tincture of madness."> I don't have the info at my fingertips, but as I recall, if made of> 4130, the cabanes could be as small as (maybe) 1/2" diameter tube But they > would look stupid. >> Bill C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 22:00:28 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
>> ** Re: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: shad bell
RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring Gear
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Yeh... I made enough money selling cheap pulp romancepaperbacks that I could finally afford to buy my ownPiet.Seriously, though, the airplane insprires flights offancy. That and a few glasses of red wine.Meanwhile, I do want to mention that the latest editionof the BPA Newsletter is a good one (and aren't they all?)so if you aren't subscribed, it's a good old fashionedread with pictures and everything.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:07:44 -0400
Yeh... I made enough money selling cheap pulp romancepaperbacks that I could finally afford to buy my ownPiet.Seriously, though, the airplane insprires flights offancy. That and a few glasses of red wine.Meanwhile, I do want to mention that the latest editionof the BPA Newsletter is a good one (and aren't they all?)so if you aren't subscribed, it's a good old fashionedread with pictures and everything.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spring GearDate: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:07:44 -0400