Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: Oscar Zuniga
Mark;Why not ask Harry Riblett about the 612 vs. 613.5?I believe he's still around and talks freely withhomebuilders.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/the ... __________
Mark;Why not ask Harry Riblett about the 612 vs. 613.5?I believe he's still around and talks freely withhomebuilders.Oscar ZunigaAir Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________________________The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/the ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
or 613.5, and jigs too...HA! Tim, that was the best said response to date of any of my postreplies.... Especially the Lose Weight part (all the years when I wasas skinny as a noodle and made fun of fat folk is coming back to bitme in the belly... My legs are still so skinny I have considered suingthem for non-support...)All kidding aside, I really do appreciate your reply, as it was a goodsummary of the design thoughts, and was presented very nicely--- (Not"Why the H#ll do you want to do that? Just build it the way hedesigned it!!")To update all:I did just hang up from a delightful 20 minute call to Harry Riblett.We discussed the airfoil and the plane design, and while I appreciatethat he has not built and flown a Piet, he does understand the basicdesign and the flight dynamics of it. Before i pass along his thoughts(as of today 7/22/10), I want to explain (again) why I would even messaround with the design in the first place.I'm 6'4" and 250lbs. Even with a dramatic weight loss, I'd still likemy wife to go along if the temp in Central California goes above 90degrees (about 6 months outta the year...).So, since my wife actually LIKES the Piet design (a first for the onesI have shown her), I'd like the extra lift I will need to flycomfortably.I called Harry to ask (as Oscar suggested.... Thanks Oscar!) whichwould be better for me to use: the GA30-612 or the GA30-613.5. (Hekept correcting me when I simply said 'the 612 or the 613.5... "It'sthe GA30-613.5..."). He said the GA30-613.5 was the one I would wantto go with due to the higher lifting co-efficient of the airfoil.He said about 1 degree of incidence would be good, as I mentioned thatLowell had to hold 30-40 lbs of forward stick at cruise.I also know that a couple of extra feet on the wing tips would help,and that I'll need to account for that in tail area as well.But, as to the 2 airfoils that have been batted about in the forum, heseemed to think the GA30-613.5 would be a better choice if one wasconsidering an alternative to the original FC-10.Now, I know there are lots of opinions about this, so I am not tryingto start another war, but just passing along the discussion I had withhim about the differences with the 2 airfoils for an open cockpit,draggy high wing design.It's a 19 year update on the original letter that he wrote and hasbeen posted on this forum in the past. :o0To those going to Brodhead, I envy ya'll.MarkOn Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Tim Willis wrote:>> Mark,>> Riblett is certainly the authority on his own airfoils and any response you getwill no doubt be illuminating. Please share.>> This board likely knows more about Pietenpols and their flying characteristicsthan Harry Riblett, though, and has at least some anecdotal comparisons specificto Piets. We may know some stories Riblett does not know, and he some ofwhich we are uninformed, in mating Ribletts to Piets.>> What's more, I think YOUR choice to a degree, though, relates to what engineand what applications you have or intend. Do you have a 60+hp A-65 or a 90+hpCorvair? Do you want to get off the ground and over 50' AGL in a hurry, or wantto cruise faster? How is this preference reflected... do you have a climb propor a cruise prop? Is your challenging app to fly 1000 miles to Brodhead withfull fuel but a light load, as quickly as a Piet can, or to take a heavy friendflying on a hot day?>> Both Riblett airfoils are reputed to give more lift, less drag than the BP airfoil.No one has put them up to a side-by-side test.*** (see below)> None of them-- Riblett or BP-- unlike the NACA 2412, for instance, have beenin wind tunnels.>> Likely comparisons:>> --The 613.5 should have both more lift and drag than the 612.> --The 612 should have more lift and less drag than BP's FC10.> --The 612 should be faster than the 613.5 and BP's FC10.> --All else equal, you should attain 50' AGL faster with the 613.5> --You might have the gentlest stall with the 613.5... this remains to be seen.>> Some may rightly disagree with each of these statements.>> You can change a lot of the flight dynamics witha ANY airfoil by building thePiet as light as possible, powering it up a bit, and/or by adding some wingspan.>> With a thicker section and chord on a 613.5, little changes in the angle of incidence(from the 2 degrees of the FC10) might tune the Riblett quite differentlyto achieve a different optimum. Who has worked on this? Kept a lab book?Both considered and accommodated differential pitching moments?>> ***Note: Lowell Frank has had different wings, featuring BP's FC 10 and NACA2412, on the same plane with the same engine. Then he changed to a more powerfulengine. He has the closest to comaparative data. Some of the Riblett 612 and613.5s are just coming on line now. (If memory serves, check with Roman Bukolt,for instance.)>> This is just grist for the mill... there are many other considerations. Adherenceto the original design, with its well known envelope, are two. But it isyour plane and your applications.>> In my case, starting afresh, as a fat boy in a warm climate, with an A-65, Iwould go with the Riblett 613.5 and add wingspan, as well. And go on a diet, too.>> Tim in central TX>> -----Original Message----->>From: Mark Roberts >>Sent: Jul 22, 2010 3:11 PM>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...>>>>>>Good idea Oscar. I did in fact try to call him on the issue a couple>>of months ago, and left a message, but I wasn't sure if he was indeed>>still around, so I chickened out on calling again. I didn't think to>>call back this time, so i think I will give another shout out to him>>on this issue.>>>>Thanks for the suggestion.>>>>Mark>>>>On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Oscar Zuniga wrote:>>>>>>>>> Mark;>>>>>> Why not ask Harry Riblett about the 612 vs. 613.5?>>> I believe he's still around and talks freely with>>> homebuilders.>>>>>> Oscar Zuniga>>> Air Camper NX41CC>>> San Antonio, TX>>> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com>>> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net> >>> ______________________________________________________________>>> >-->>Mark Roberts>>California Laser Etch>>www.california-laser.com>>888-882-5015>>888-882-5016 fax>>>>>>-- Mark RobertsCalifornia Laser Etchwww.california-laser.com888-882-5015888-882-5016 fax________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:56:16 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
or 613.5, and jigs too...HA! Tim, that was the best said response to date of any of my postreplies.... Especially the Lose Weight part (all the years when I wasas skinny as a noodle and made fun of fat folk is coming back to bitme in the belly... My legs are still so skinny I have considered suingthem for non-support...)All kidding aside, I really do appreciate your reply, as it was a goodsummary of the design thoughts, and was presented very nicely--- (Not"Why the H#ll do you want to do that? Just build it the way hedesigned it!!")To update all:I did just hang up from a delightful 20 minute call to Harry Riblett.We discussed the airfoil and the plane design, and while I appreciatethat he has not built and flown a Piet, he does understand the basicdesign and the flight dynamics of it. Before i pass along his thoughts(as of today 7/22/10), I want to explain (again) why I would even messaround with the design in the first place.I'm 6'4" and 250lbs. Even with a dramatic weight loss, I'd still likemy wife to go along if the temp in Central California goes above 90degrees (about 6 months outta the year...).So, since my wife actually LIKES the Piet design (a first for the onesI have shown her), I'd like the extra lift I will need to flycomfortably.I called Harry to ask (as Oscar suggested.... Thanks Oscar!) whichwould be better for me to use: the GA30-612 or the GA30-613.5. (Hekept correcting me when I simply said 'the 612 or the 613.5... "It'sthe GA30-613.5..."). He said the GA30-613.5 was the one I would wantto go with due to the higher lifting co-efficient of the airfoil.He said about 1 degree of incidence would be good, as I mentioned thatLowell had to hold 30-40 lbs of forward stick at cruise.I also know that a couple of extra feet on the wing tips would help,and that I'll need to account for that in tail area as well.But, as to the 2 airfoils that have been batted about in the forum, heseemed to think the GA30-613.5 would be a better choice if one wasconsidering an alternative to the original FC-10.Now, I know there are lots of opinions about this, so I am not tryingto start another war, but just passing along the discussion I had withhim about the differences with the 2 airfoils for an open cockpit,draggy high wing design.It's a 19 year update on the original letter that he wrote and hasbeen posted on this forum in the past. :o0To those going to Brodhead, I envy ya'll.MarkOn Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Tim Willis wrote:>> Mark,>> Riblett is certainly the authority on his own airfoils and any response you getwill no doubt be illuminating. Please share.>> This board likely knows more about Pietenpols and their flying characteristicsthan Harry Riblett, though, and has at least some anecdotal comparisons specificto Piets. We may know some stories Riblett does not know, and he some ofwhich we are uninformed, in mating Ribletts to Piets.>> What's more, I think YOUR choice to a degree, though, relates to what engineand what applications you have or intend. Do you have a 60+hp A-65 or a 90+hpCorvair? Do you want to get off the ground and over 50' AGL in a hurry, or wantto cruise faster? How is this preference reflected... do you have a climb propor a cruise prop? Is your challenging app to fly 1000 miles to Brodhead withfull fuel but a light load, as quickly as a Piet can, or to take a heavy friendflying on a hot day?>> Both Riblett airfoils are reputed to give more lift, less drag than the BP airfoil.No one has put them up to a side-by-side test.*** (see below)> None of them-- Riblett or BP-- unlike the NACA 2412, for instance, have beenin wind tunnels.>> Likely comparisons:>> --The 613.5 should have both more lift and drag than the 612.> --The 612 should have more lift and less drag than BP's FC10.> --The 612 should be faster than the 613.5 and BP's FC10.> --All else equal, you should attain 50' AGL faster with the 613.5> --You might have the gentlest stall with the 613.5... this remains to be seen.>> Some may rightly disagree with each of these statements.>> You can change a lot of the flight dynamics witha ANY airfoil by building thePiet as light as possible, powering it up a bit, and/or by adding some wingspan.>> With a thicker section and chord on a 613.5, little changes in the angle of incidence(from the 2 degrees of the FC10) might tune the Riblett quite differentlyto achieve a different optimum. Who has worked on this? Kept a lab book?Both considered and accommodated differential pitching moments?>> ***Note: Lowell Frank has had different wings, featuring BP's FC 10 and NACA2412, on the same plane with the same engine. Then he changed to a more powerfulengine. He has the closest to comaparative data. Some of the Riblett 612 and613.5s are just coming on line now. (If memory serves, check with Roman Bukolt,for instance.)>> This is just grist for the mill... there are many other considerations. Adherenceto the original design, with its well known envelope, are two. But it isyour plane and your applications.>> In my case, starting afresh, as a fat boy in a warm climate, with an A-65, Iwould go with the Riblett 613.5 and add wingspan, as well. And go on a diet, too.>> Tim in central TX>> -----Original Message----->>From: Mark Roberts >>Sent: Jul 22, 2010 3:11 PM>>To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...>>>>>>Good idea Oscar. I did in fact try to call him on the issue a couple>>of months ago, and left a message, but I wasn't sure if he was indeed>>still around, so I chickened out on calling again. I didn't think to>>call back this time, so i think I will give another shout out to him>>on this issue.>>>>Thanks for the suggestion.>>>>Mark>>>>On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Oscar Zuniga wrote:>>>>>>>>> Mark;>>>>>> Why not ask Harry Riblett about the 612 vs. 613.5?>>> I believe he's still around and talks freely with>>> homebuilders.>>>>>> Oscar Zuniga>>> Air Camper NX41CC>>> San Antonio, TX>>> mailto: taildrags(at)hotmail.com>>> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net> >>> ______________________________________________________________>>> >-->>Mark Roberts>>California Laser Etch>>www.california-laser.com>>888-882-5015>>888-882-5016 fax>>>>>>-- Mark RobertsCalifornia Laser Etchwww.california-laser.com888-882-5015888-882-5016 fax________________________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:56:16 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Many times Ive heard builders mention building a flat wing or one with no dihedral.I hope Vi Kapler will jump in if Im wrong, but I believe Bernard would havetwo people lift up on the wing tips when he measured for the wing struts therebyintroducing a slight dihedral on his single piece flat wing. Having flowna Piet with anhedral (wingtips lower), I can warn you that you do not wantto experience it.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:11:54 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Many times Ive heard builders mention building a flat wing or one with no dihedral.I hope Vi Kapler will jump in if Im wrong, but I believe Bernard would havetwo people lift up on the wing tips when he measured for the wing struts therebyintroducing a slight dihedral on his single piece flat wing. Having flowna Piet with anhedral (wingtips lower), I can warn you that you do not wantto experience it.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:11:54 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: shad bell
Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Mark,Glad to see you got that figured out! Any day now you will be posting pics of finishedribs!Gary BootheSent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry-----Original Message-----
Mark,Glad to see you got that figured out! Any day now you will be posting pics of finishedribs!Gary BootheSent on the Sprint Now Network from my BlackBerry-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: "Jack"
Hey Mark, that jig is still looking good in my garage. I haven't built one yetbut it's fast becoming time. Again thanks for the jig it looks great.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hey Mark, that jig is still looking good in my garage. I haven't built one yetbut it's fast becoming time. Again thanks for the jig it looks great.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
So thought that I would share, that we had our little girl on 7/22 at 1839, 7lbs12ozs, and healthy as can be! And we had our first bonding experience involvinga Pietenpol! might look like shes taking a nap, but shes really just enjoyingthe moment!!(rebuild!)tail feathers removedwing ready for trailing edgeCorvair being removed soon.--------www.vansavition.com follow my Piet rebuild there!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/madd ... ______Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:24:10 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
So thought that I would share, that we had our little girl on 7/22 at 1839, 7lbs12ozs, and healthy as can be! And we had our first bonding experience involvinga Pietenpol! might look like shes taking a nap, but shes really just enjoyingthe moment!!(rebuild!)tail feathers removedwing ready for trailing edgeCorvair being removed soon.--------www.vansavition.com follow my Piet rebuild there!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/madd ... ______Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:24:10 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Pietenpol-List: Re: To Door or not to Door
Original Posted By: "ldmill"
________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: To Door or not to Door
________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: To Door or not to Door
Pietenpol-List: Re: 4am Howitzer Shot?
Original Posted By: "ldmill"
My GN-1 actually has two doors. Check it out on westcoastpiet.com (N30PP). I REALLYlike having them. With no center section cutout or handhold, I can stillget in without doing the twister.Lorin--------Lorin MillerWaiex N81YXGN-1 N30PPRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4am Howitzer Shot?
My GN-1 actually has two doors. Check it out on westcoastpiet.com (N30PP). I REALLYlike having them. With no center section cutout or handhold, I can stillget in without doing the twister.Lorin--------Lorin MillerWaiex N81YXGN-1 N30PPRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4am Howitzer Shot?
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4am Howitzer Shot?
Original Posted By: Dan Yocum
I was the guy in the enclosed black trailer camping out in the parking lot. Sittingin that metal breadbox - when that "howitzer shot" went off - I thought hecamper was going to fold in on itself. It sounded like a ball-pean hammer washitting the trailer all night! My white 10x10 EZ-UP canopy collapsed from theamount of rain. I was out every 15 minutes for almost 2 hours dumping rainoff it trying to keep the motorcycles dry. Gave up at 3am and the canopy lookedlike a pretzel the next morning.FYI - thanks to the Brodhead folks for letting me camp in the parking lot Sundaynight also! I blew a transmission line in the Suburban on Sunday morning justas I was leaving for Oshkosh. I caught it at the gas station in town, and limpedback to the airport. Watched Kevin limp back after breaking his bungee cordSunday afternoon, then watched another movie at the hanger Sunday night (oneabout the Canadian RCAF that was pretty lame, they forgot about the plot bymidpoint of the movie). Had the Sub at the chevy shop by 7:45 and it was fixedby 8:30. They replaced the line for a total emergency fix of $120. Many stories to tell this year!!Lorin--------Lorin MillerWaiex N81YXGN-1 N30PPRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4am Howitzer Shot?
I was the guy in the enclosed black trailer camping out in the parking lot. Sittingin that metal breadbox - when that "howitzer shot" went off - I thought hecamper was going to fold in on itself. It sounded like a ball-pean hammer washitting the trailer all night! My white 10x10 EZ-UP canopy collapsed from theamount of rain. I was out every 15 minutes for almost 2 hours dumping rainoff it trying to keep the motorcycles dry. Gave up at 3am and the canopy lookedlike a pretzel the next morning.FYI - thanks to the Brodhead folks for letting me camp in the parking lot Sundaynight also! I blew a transmission line in the Suburban on Sunday morning justas I was leaving for Oshkosh. I caught it at the gas station in town, and limpedback to the airport. Watched Kevin limp back after breaking his bungee cordSunday afternoon, then watched another movie at the hanger Sunday night (oneabout the Canadian RCAF that was pretty lame, they forgot about the plot bymidpoint of the movie). Had the Sub at the chevy shop by 7:45 and it was fixedby 8:30. They replaced the line for a total emergency fix of $120. Many stories to tell this year!!Lorin--------Lorin MillerWaiex N81YXGN-1 N30PPRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 4am Howitzer Shot?
Original Posted By: Michael Groah
Kevin broke a bungee?Dan -- yocum(at)gmail.comOn Jul 31, 2010, at 9:34 PM, ldmill wrote:> > I was the guy in the enclosed black trailer camping out in the parking lot. Sittingin that metal breadbox - when that "howitzer shot" went off - I thoughthe camper was going to fold in on itself. It sounded like a ball-pean hammerwas hitting the trailer all night! My white 10x10 EZ-UP canopy collapsed fromthe amount of rain. I was out every 15 minutes for almost 2 hours dumping rainoff it trying to keep the motorcycles dry. Gave up at 3am and the canopy lookedlike a pretzel the next morning.> > FYI - thanks to the Brodhead folks for letting me camp in the parking lot Sundaynight also! I blew a transmission line in the Suburban on Sunday morning justas I was leaving for Oshkosh. I caught it at the gas station in town, andlimped back to the airport. Watched Kevin limp back after breaking his bungeecord Sunday afternoon, then watched another movie at the hanger Sunday night(one about the Canadian RCAF that was pretty lame, they forgot about the plotby midpoint of the movie). Had the Sub at the chevy shop by 7:45 and it was fixedby 8:30. They replaced the line for a total emergency fix of $120. > > Many stories to tell this year!!> > Lorin> > --------> Lorin Miller> Waiex N81YX> GN-1 N30PP> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 002#307002> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 23:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
Kevin broke a bungee?Dan -- yocum(at)gmail.comOn Jul 31, 2010, at 9:34 PM, ldmill wrote:> > I was the guy in the enclosed black trailer camping out in the parking lot. Sittingin that metal breadbox - when that "howitzer shot" went off - I thoughthe camper was going to fold in on itself. It sounded like a ball-pean hammerwas hitting the trailer all night! My white 10x10 EZ-UP canopy collapsed fromthe amount of rain. I was out every 15 minutes for almost 2 hours dumping rainoff it trying to keep the motorcycles dry. Gave up at 3am and the canopy lookedlike a pretzel the next morning.> > FYI - thanks to the Brodhead folks for letting me camp in the parking lot Sundaynight also! I blew a transmission line in the Suburban on Sunday morning justas I was leaving for Oshkosh. I caught it at the gas station in town, andlimped back to the airport. Watched Kevin limp back after breaking his bungeecord Sunday afternoon, then watched another movie at the hanger Sunday night(one about the Canadian RCAF that was pretty lame, they forgot about the plotby midpoint of the movie). Had the Sub at the chevy shop by 7:45 and it was fixedby 8:30. They replaced the line for a total emergency fix of $120. > > Many stories to tell this year!!> > Lorin> > --------> Lorin Miller> Waiex N81YX> GN-1 N30PP> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 002#307002> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 23:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Original Posted By: Mark Roberts
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett 612 or 613.5, and jigs too...