Original Posted By: Gordon Brimhall
Thanks for your reply Gordon, I have a modeler friend who constantlyspends hours building beautiful model RC airplanes. When finished hewill take them out to the field and they usually will crash because hebuilds his own battery packs out of the (good batteries from old packs)to save a couple bucks . I give him a bad time about it. But he stillto this day is stuborn about it. But we still are best friends.I think we all want to build our piets for as little as possable ifnothing else but to brag about our scavaging abilities! So build yourplane like I am with as few dollars as possable, but if I think yours oranybody elses thriftyness (starting with the plans) is going to effectthe safety Zone I'm going to raze you about it ! I don't mean to make amountain out of a mole hill, just reminding all that with thisoverpriced airplane stuff that we don't want to see anyone become amolehill on the side of a mountain!Self appointed Safety guru--Check out Crusader Toys @http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/_______ ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Pietenpol-List: Re: Plans Question
Original Posted By: UUNet
PhilNo problem as I knew you had the best intentions in mind when you wererazing me about it. Thanks for not calling me an old cheap a-- but I guess Iam in a way. But safety is my concern and if you had read any of my earlierposts you would remember that my dream is to drive into a local Fly In withmy Model "A" Ford pulling my Real Peitenpol which will be powered with aModel "A" Engine. I want the real plane built as close to the one Barnardbuilt with some safety features built in also.I buy cases of batteries and my RC batteries are rechargable.ThanksGordonPhil Peck wrote:> Thanks for your reply Gordon, I have a modeler friend who constantly> spends hours building beautiful model RC airplanes. When finished he> will take them out to the field and they usually will crash because he> builds his own battery packs out of the (good batteries from old packs)> to save a couple bucks . I give him a bad time about it. But he still> to this day is stuborn about it. But we still are best friends.> I think we all want to build our piets for as little as possable if> nothing else but to brag about our scavaging abilities! So build your> plane like I am with as few dollars as possable, but if I think yours or> anybody elses thriftyness (starting with the plans) is going to effect> the safety Zone I'm going to raze you about it ! I don't mean to make a> mountain out of a mole hill, just reminding all that with this> overpriced airplane stuff that we don't want to see anyone become a> molehill on the side of a mountain!> Self appointed Safety guru>> --> Check out Crusader Toys @> http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/_______ ... __________
PhilNo problem as I knew you had the best intentions in mind when you wererazing me about it. Thanks for not calling me an old cheap a-- but I guess Iam in a way. But safety is my concern and if you had read any of my earlierposts you would remember that my dream is to drive into a local Fly In withmy Model "A" Ford pulling my Real Peitenpol which will be powered with aModel "A" Engine. I want the real plane built as close to the one Barnardbuilt with some safety features built in also.I buy cases of batteries and my RC batteries are rechargable.ThanksGordonPhil Peck wrote:> Thanks for your reply Gordon, I have a modeler friend who constantly> spends hours building beautiful model RC airplanes. When finished he> will take them out to the field and they usually will crash because he> builds his own battery packs out of the (good batteries from old packs)> to save a couple bucks . I give him a bad time about it. But he still> to this day is stuborn about it. But we still are best friends.> I think we all want to build our piets for as little as possable if> nothing else but to brag about our scavaging abilities! So build your> plane like I am with as few dollars as possable, but if I think yours or> anybody elses thriftyness (starting with the plans) is going to effect> the safety Zone I'm going to raze you about it ! I don't mean to make a> mountain out of a mole hill, just reminding all that with this> overpriced airplane stuff that we don't want to see anyone become a> molehill on the side of a mountain!> Self appointed Safety guru>> --> Check out Crusader Toys @> http://www.thegrid.net/crusader/_______ ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com
which ash piece do you mean? If you are referring to the one across the floor=2C for the wooden gear version there is not one. You can add one=2C like most people have done=2C but then you have to modify the fittings. If you mean the ash piece at the bottom of the gear=2C the dimensions are in the F&G manual=2C something like 1 1/2 by 2 1/2 by 7 (don't have the plans in front of me).GeneDate: Fri=2C 27 Aug 2010 05:08:56 -0700
which ash piece do you mean? If you are referring to the one across the floor=2C for the wooden gear version there is not one. You can add one=2C like most people have done=2C but then you have to modify the fittings. If you mean the ash piece at the bottom of the gear=2C the dimensions are in the F&G manual=2C something like 1 1/2 by 2 1/2 by 7 (don't have the plans in front of me).GeneDate: Fri=2C 27 Aug 2010 05:08:56 -0700
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
KM,I don't have the wood gear page in front of me, but by recollection I don'tthink that dimension is supplied. Even if it was, I may have ignored it.The gear length probably changes for each plane, depending on what wheelsyou choose (mine are 21") and what deck angle you want when complete (mineis 13 deg). Tail wheel design will also affect deck angle. In my case, I installed the tail wheel, propped the fuselage up on sawhorses and blocks until I got the deck angle, rolled the wheels in to place(the dimension from the leading edge as I recall), then measured for thelegs.Gary BootheCool, CAPietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, Fuselage on gear20 ribs done
KM,I don't have the wood gear page in front of me, but by recollection I don'tthink that dimension is supplied. Even if it was, I may have ignored it.The gear length probably changes for each plane, depending on what wheelsyou choose (mine are 21") and what deck angle you want when complete (mineis 13 deg). Tail wheel design will also affect deck angle. In my case, I installed the tail wheel, propped the fuselage up on sawhorses and blocks until I got the deck angle, rolled the wheels in to place(the dimension from the leading edge as I recall), then measured for thelegs.Gary BootheCool, CAPietenpolWW Corvair ConversionTail done, Fuselage on gear20 ribs done
> Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Jim Markle
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Pietenpol-List: The Great Waldo Pepper released on DVD in WIDESCREENhttp://www.bestbuy.com/site/The+Great+Waldo+Pe ... 7584Thanks to an off-list e-mail from a good Piet builder in the Northwest named Jake I was given this great NEWS about TGWP DVDbecoming available in widescreen and at a decent price.Just gather round folks, just gather round..........Thanks Jake !Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:03:40 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Subject: Pietenpol-List: The Great Waldo Pepper released on DVD in WIDESCREENhttp://www.bestbuy.com/site/The+Great+Waldo+Pe ... 7584Thanks to an off-list e-mail from a good Piet builder in the Northwest named Jake I was given this great NEWS about TGWP DVDbecoming available in widescreen and at a decent price.Just gather round folks, just gather round..........Thanks Jake !Mike C.________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:03:40 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: rmueller23(at)gmail.com
No=2C the plans are clear=2C with the wooden gear version from the F&G manual the cross pieces are merely 1" square spruce just like every other cross member. There are no ash cross pieces on that version of the plans.GeneDate: Fri=2C 27 Aug 2010 08:03:40 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
No=2C the plans are clear=2C with the wooden gear version from the F&G manual the cross pieces are merely 1" square spruce just like every other cross member. There are no ash cross pieces on that version of the plans.GeneDate: Fri=2C 27 Aug 2010 08:03:40 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: rmueller23(at)gmail.com
you're right=2C and I saw that after I posted. I do not have the plans in front of me=2C but I do know for sure that the cross piece is 1" square. I cannot explain why the cross section looks like it does. Many people (including me) built the fuselage to the "improved plans" with ash cross pieces before noticing that the wood gear version did not have them. The ash was added for the "split-type" gear in the improved plans. All I did (and most others) was modify the gear fittings (I did it per Pavliga drawings) to make them work. I think the modified ones are stronger anyway. I will say that the steel strap shown in the cross section you posted may be necessary (or at least a good idea) with a 1" square spruce cross piece=2C but I cannot find a single reason to have it on the ash version and I am not installing one.GeneDate: Fri=2C 27 Aug 2010 08:43:32 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
you're right=2C and I saw that after I posted. I do not have the plans in front of me=2C but I do know for sure that the cross piece is 1" square. I cannot explain why the cross section looks like it does. Many people (including me) built the fuselage to the "improved plans" with ash cross pieces before noticing that the wood gear version did not have them. The ash was added for the "split-type" gear in the improved plans. All I did (and most others) was modify the gear fittings (I did it per Pavliga drawings) to make them work. I think the modified ones are stronger anyway. I will say that the steel strap shown in the cross section you posted may be necessary (or at least a good idea) with a 1" square spruce cross piece=2C but I cannot find a single reason to have it on the ash version and I am not installing one.GeneDate: Fri=2C 27 Aug 2010 08:43:32 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
> Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, itclearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to3/4". Fortunately either way works.Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash crossbraces.- There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces.- What orientation the 1"dimension should be is debatable.Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----
True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, itclearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to3/4". Fortunately either way works.Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash crossbraces.- There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces.- What orientation the 1"dimension should be is debatable.Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, itclearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to3/4".Fortunately either way works.Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash crossbraces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"dimension should be is debatable.Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----
>True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, itclearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to3/4".Fortunately either way works.Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash crossbraces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"dimension should be is debatable.Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, itclearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to3/4". Fortunately either way works.Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash crossbraces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"dimension should be is debatable.Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----
True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, itclearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to3/4". Fortunately either way works.Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash crossbraces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"dimension should be is debatable.Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By:> catdesigns(at)att.net
I had thought it was 1" square, but do not have plans in fornt of me.- If they are 1" x 3/4, then the 1" is-in the fore and aft plane, 3/4" tall as-shown-in the drawing Ryan posted.-Gene-
I had thought it was 1" square, but do not have plans in fornt of me.- If they are 1" x 3/4, then the 1" is-in the fore and aft plane, 3/4" tall as-shown-in the drawing Ryan posted.-Gene-
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By:> catdesigns(at)att.net
I had thought it was 1" square=2C but do not have plans in fornt of me. If they are 1" x 3/4=2C then the 1" is in the fore and aft plane=2C 3/4" tall as shown in the drawing Ryan posted.Gene
I had thought it was 1" square=2C but do not have plans in fornt of me. If they are 1" x 3/4=2C then the 1" is in the fore and aft plane=2C 3/4" tall as shown in the drawing Ryan posted.Gene
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Chris
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans QuestionHi Michael,The "original" plans (that we can still find) would be the drawings thatwere published in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual. Those contain theshortest fuselage, the wood landing gear, etc. They are obviously very smalldrawings compared to full size plans, and would be a little difficult tobuild from.The plans available from the family are the "Improved" plans from '33. The"improvements" are the split axle gear, slightly longer fuselage, and Idon't recall the rest of the top of my head.RyanSent from my iPhoneOn Aug 28, 2010, at 10:21 AM, Michael Perez wrote:The original question was referring to the "wood" landing gear, not thesplit axle. Those wood pieces would be different for the different stylegear used. I am curious as to what the "original fuselage" plans are. Myfuselage plan is dated 1933 and shows the 2" X 3/4" ash.Michael PerezKaretaker Aerowww.karetakeraero.com--- On *Sat, 8/28/10, Chris * wrote:
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans QuestionHi Michael,The "original" plans (that we can still find) would be the drawings thatwere published in the 1932 Flying and Glider Manual. Those contain theshortest fuselage, the wood landing gear, etc. They are obviously very smalldrawings compared to full size plans, and would be a little difficult tobuild from.The plans available from the family are the "Improved" plans from '33. The"improvements" are the split axle gear, slightly longer fuselage, and Idon't recall the rest of the top of my head.RyanSent from my iPhoneOn Aug 28, 2010, at 10:21 AM, Michael Perez wrote:The original question was referring to the "wood" landing gear, not thesplit axle. Those wood pieces would be different for the different stylegear used. I am curious as to what the "original fuselage" plans are. Myfuselage plan is dated 1933 and shows the 2" X 3/4" ash.Michael PerezKaretaker Aerowww.karetakeraero.com--- On *Sat, 8/28/10, Chris * wrote:
Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
On the plans page showing the wing struts it reads.Lower end of strut isgiven a little play to avoid chances of crystallization of fuselage FTG.Can anybody help with understanding this?Thanks,JackJack Textor________________________________________________________________________________
On the plans page showing the wing struts it reads.Lower end of strut isgiven a little play to avoid chances of crystallization of fuselage FTG.Can anybody help with understanding this?Thanks,JackJack Textor________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Crystallization is a non-scientific way of describing metal fatigue. Theold-timers used to say "That metal was crystallized" when presented with afracture with both smooth and rough areas. All metals naturally have acrystalline structure, but a fatigue fracture will show with part of thebreak being smoothly polished where the edges of the crack rubbed togetherand polished the surface of the crack.Fatigue occurs when a stress reverses itself repeatedly (over millions ofcycles). The phenomenom is imperfectly understood, but it is understood howto avoid it. You can either avoid it by keeping the stress below athreshold limit (called the "Endurance Limit") for some metals, includingsteels (aluminum has no Endurance Limit and can exhibit fatigue failures atany level of stress, if the reversing stress is repeated enough times), orby not allowing the stress to reverse from tension to compression.Beechcraft Bonanzas, Douglas DC-3's, and General Dynamics F-16's used thistechnique to eliminate fatigue in the wing attach bolts by preloading themto high enough tension that when the wing flexed in negative G's at theworst case the stress in the bolts would never get to zero, thus the boltsnever saw a reversing stress.Sorry - I just realized that you asked what time it was, and I told you howto build a clock. In answer to your original question - don't worry aboutit. I'd make it tight. The metal won't "crystallize".Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____
Crystallization is a non-scientific way of describing metal fatigue. Theold-timers used to say "That metal was crystallized" when presented with afracture with both smooth and rough areas. All metals naturally have acrystalline structure, but a fatigue fracture will show with part of thebreak being smoothly polished where the edges of the crack rubbed togetherand polished the surface of the crack.Fatigue occurs when a stress reverses itself repeatedly (over millions ofcycles). The phenomenom is imperfectly understood, but it is understood howto avoid it. You can either avoid it by keeping the stress below athreshold limit (called the "Endurance Limit") for some metals, includingsteels (aluminum has no Endurance Limit and can exhibit fatigue failures atany level of stress, if the reversing stress is repeated enough times), orby not allowing the stress to reverse from tension to compression.Beechcraft Bonanzas, Douglas DC-3's, and General Dynamics F-16's used thistechnique to eliminate fatigue in the wing attach bolts by preloading themto high enough tension that when the wing flexed in negative G's at theworst case the stress in the bolts would never get to zero, thus the boltsnever saw a reversing stress.Sorry - I just realized that you asked what time it was, and I told you howto build a clock. In answer to your original question - don't worry aboutit. I'd make it tight. The metal won't "crystallize".Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By:> rmueller23(at)gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: rmueller23(at)gmail.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By:> rmueller23(at)gmail.com
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By:> rmueller23(at)gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
> RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > > True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing=2C it> clearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to> 3/4". > > Fortunately either way works.> > Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash cross> braces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"> dimension should be is debatable.> > Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.> > Chris> Sacramento=2C Ca> Westcoastpiet.com> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing=2C it> clearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to> 3/4". > > Fortunately either way works.> > Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash cross> braces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"> dimension should be is debatable.> > Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.> > Chris> Sacramento=2C Ca> Westcoastpiet.com> > > -----Original Message-----
> RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > > True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, it> clearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to> 3/4". > > Fortunately either way works.> > Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash cross> braces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"> dimension should be is debatable.> > Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.> > Chris> Sacramento, Ca> Westcoastpiet.com> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > True Mike but look on the steel split axel gear page upper right drawing, it> clearly says the front ash cross piece is 2"x1" with the ends tapered to> 3/4". > > Fortunately either way works.> > Now on the original fuselage (wood landing gear) there are no ash cross> braces. There are 1"x3/4" spruce cross braces. What orientation the 1"> dimension should be is debatable.> > Welcome to the world of Pietenpol drawings.> > Chris> Sacramento, Ca> Westcoastpiet.com> > > -----Original Message-----
> Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans Question
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
> > > > #yiv1731749888 .yiv1731749888hmmessage P {> PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}> #yiv1731749888 .yiv1731749888hmmessage {> FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;FONT-SIZE:10pt;}> > > > > I'm looking at page 8 of the> 1932 F&G right now. The > crossmember at both the> front and rear landing gear/wing> strut locations is 1" X > 3/4" spruce.> > Remember also that you're not> just talking about the > landing gear but also the> wing struts. These crossmembers are> a continuation of the > strut system. They> are compression loaded in negative> G and tension loaded in > positive G. The> bottom plywood takes some of this> load also.> > Clif> > > "Perfection is achieved, not > when there is nothing more to add, but when there is> nothing left to take away." > Antoine de Saint-Exupery> > >> get what figured out?? My first >response to him was correct and still stands. He> asked about the >dimensions of the ash piece when using the wooden gear,> and I correctly >pointed out that per the plans, there is no ash piece in> the fuselage when >building the wooden gear.> Gene> do not > archive> > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:53:32 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > #yiv1731749888 .yiv1731749888hmmessage P {> PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;}> #yiv1731749888 .yiv1731749888hmmessage {> FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;FONT-SIZE:10pt;}> > > > > I'm looking at page 8 of the> 1932 F&G right now. The > crossmember at both the> front and rear landing gear/wing> strut locations is 1" X > 3/4" spruce.> > Remember also that you're not> just talking about the > landing gear but also the> wing struts. These crossmembers are> a continuation of the > strut system. They> are compression loaded in negative> G and tension loaded in > positive G. The> bottom plywood takes some of this> load also.> > Clif> > > "Perfection is achieved, not > when there is nothing more to add, but when there is> nothing left to take away." > Antoine de Saint-Exupery> > >> get what figured out?? My first >response to him was correct and still stands. He> asked about the >dimensions of the ash piece when using the wooden gear,> and I correctly >pointed out that per the plans, there is no ash piece in> the fuselage when >building the wooden gear.> Gene> do not > archive> > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:53:32 -0700 (PDT)