Pietenpol-List: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:02 pm

Original Posted By: "bender"
Another option for the motor mount fittings is to end the covering before the fittingand cover the fittings with metal.http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Pau ... Sacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:31 pm

Original Posted By: "Gboothe5"
i know this horse gets beaten a lot but.... i'm about to build the wooden gearand i'm thinking about wood... my fuselage is all poplar and i'm totally comfortablewith the wood and it's strength.. but... do i use it for the gear legslike i'm thinking i should ?? i've read that ash for the legs is really overkilland i'm not a rebel but it's not going to be spruce.. i really like pickingboards from the pile myself and there is no spruce in kentuckyjeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:45 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Jeff,ALL struts and gear legs on NX308MB are laminated Hickory, but not flighttested. You can see pics at www.westcoastpiet.com. I think I recall thatMike Cuy used spruce, so my gut feeling is that you pretty much have freereign. FYI...my fuse is all poplar, too!Gary Boothe-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:52 pm

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:45 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
I knew Gary would respond to this question, he is a very poplar guy in thisneck of the woods for his wood selection skills. So poplar I decided tointegrate some poplar in my wings just so I can be like Gary. Jeff, the wood gear is already HEAVY so watch out for adding pounds in thegear legs. I'm not sure how much actual wood is in the legs but according toDesign of Aircraft Structures (ANC-18) Spruce is about 28 pounds per cubicfoot, Poplar is 29 lb per cu., Ft Ash is 41 lb per cu. Ft, White Oak is 44lb per cu. Ft., Hickory 50 lb per cu. Ft. (all at 15 percent moisture).Remember a half pound here or there adds up.I used spruce, I have seen oak, ash and hickory (Gary's). Cant's say I knowof any in poplar. If you can find some good poplar you could probably useit. Poplar is slightly weaker so I would laminate several pieces together,because I think it helps the strength, and make it slightly thicker ifpossible. Besides, if it breaks you can always head for the pond. (geez, Ican't believe I said that)You could also use Douglas-fir at 33 lb per cu. Ft., stronger than sprucebut it is prone to splitting so I don't know if it would cause problems inuse. (Lowe's and Home Depot has some good DF)You can find a copy of ANC-18 here,http://westcoastpiet.com/construction.htmThe file ANC-18 Part 1 of 3.pdf has the table of wood properties. Check itout and decide for yourself based on the lumber you have available.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:02 am

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
...always a good source for info, Chris! I often forget about how much stuffyou have at www.westcoastpiet.com! I wonder...how many cubic feet of wood are there in the gear? 1/2? 1/4? Idid not weight the parts, but my guess is that all four legs weigh about 10lbs, which means, by your #'s, there is about 1/5 cf there. I'll have to dothe math tomorrow...Gary-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:51 am

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
The legs on mine are Doug Fir but only because I couldnot get my favourite Hemlock in suitable dimensions.I have the charts on AC wood properties here;http://www.clifdawson.ca/Homepage4-10-0 ... htmlScroll down a ways. The thing you're looking for is crushingstrength which is "compression parallel to grain".For a start determine the square inch footprint at the butt endof the front leg. Mine is close to three square inches. So if(God forbid!) I should whack the ground in such a way as toput all the force directly up the left leg, would it take it?I watched The Aviators on Saturday. This Lake drops a carrierlanding on the runway directly on the right wheel. The othertwo come down smartly and the thing just rolls along onit's merry way like nothing happened. I'll bet the Piet woodLG is stronger with just about any of these softwoods.Clif>> The file ANC-18 Part 1 of 3.pdf has the table of wood properties. Check it> out and decide for yourself based on the lumber you have available.>> Chris> Sacramento, Ca> Westcoastpiet.com>>________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:54 am

Original Posted By: "bender"
How about Douglas Fir?----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:06 am

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
My gear legs are Sitka Spruce, per the plans except I laminated them in 1/4"laminations. They've survived all my poor landings so far.Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Raleigh, NC-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:57 am

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
Thank you Jack!End of report.Nice to see I'm not the only one with Ceconite,Stewartsand Poly Fibre manuals.Dave--------Covering PietRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:28 am

Original Posted By: "Richard Schreiber"
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:25 AMSubject: Steam Powerhttp://www.wxpnews.com/1TG846/100126-Steam-Powered-AirplaneHas anyone ever thought about powering a Piet with steam?________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:06 am

Original Posted By: brian.e.jardine@l-3com.com
I used laminated douglas fir on mine also. Pete Bowers used laminated pine on theFly Baby. The straight axle gear on the Fly Baby has the axle mounted solidto the gear legs and only uses the tires for shock absorption. There is moreforce transmitted to the wood gear legs on a Fly Baby compared to the bungee sprungPietenpol and the pine seems to hold up fine on the Fly Baby. Rick SchreiberValparaiso, IN________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:36 am

Original Posted By: bender
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood legsMine are laminated wood JohnSent via DROID on Verizon Wireless-----Original message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:45 am

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
How to access the oil filler and dipstick? Just put it on the other side! (Seepic...)I have always liked that "Canadian Goose"... really nice work, and great colorscheme. I notice that he does not have grommets on the cooling eyebrows wherethe plug leads enter though... I have had the braided shielding on my plug wireswear through anyplace they touch a metal edge like that, especially in theslipstream behind the pulsating prop.--------Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXAir Camper NX41CCRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/nose ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:27 am

Original Posted By: Jeff Boatright
Re: Pietenpol-List: Fw: Steam PowerdI was thinking it might need another wing!! ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:43 am

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
CharlesMine are 3 ply laminated Douglas Fir.Dick N.----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:07 pm

Original Posted By: "bender"
Compared to the axle, wheels, cables, hardware, etc...the wood is a minor weight contributor to the landing gear system.The legs on NX18235 are ash and have held up to 250 hours of my abuse. Some of that abuse has been downright teeth-jarring.Merry Christmas,Greg CardinalMinneapolis----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:12 pm

Original Posted By: Charles Campbell
Watch this space, I have the airframe 3/4 done and the engine 1/2 done, 3 cylinder radial uniflow, the boiler yet to do, to fly as a single seater. ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:44 pm

Original Posted By: Mike Tunnicliffe
Well, I was just kidding -- had no idea someone was working on it. Way to go! More power to you. Keep us advised as to how it's coming along. Chuck ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:50 pm

Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
Man, you ought to be able to land so that you never know when the weight of the airplane is transferred from the wings to the wheels. I guess that would depend on the type surface being landed upon.----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:51 pm

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
GregI hope you tighten that bolt for the wing strut and turn it over in theprocess :)Barry-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:05 pm

Original Posted By:> Barry Davis
BarryYou can't turn it over. You can't get the bolt in from the top.That is the way it has to be.I know it is not right but that is the was ithas to be.I am the one that built it Take a look at Quid.us/daleDale Johnson> [Original Message]

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:20 pm

Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
After following this discussion, I had to weigh the spruce boards I intend to makemy wooden legs from. 8' of 1/2" x 2" spruce weighs about 2.5 pounds. I willbe shaving a little of that off when I streamline them. Fairings?....I thoughtthe intent was low and slow.Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXWaiting to open my X-mas presents. They rattle like 4130!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:29 pm

Original Posted By: "Piet2112"
Once in a while I get lucky....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suOMiQUMd7w> >> Man, you ought to be able to land so that you never know when the weight > of the airplane is transferred from the wings to the wheels. I guess that > would depend on the type surface being landed upon.>________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:31 pm

Original Posted By: "Greg Cardinal"
After following this discussion, I had to weigh the spruce boards I intend to makemy wooden legs from. 8' of 1/2" x 2" spruce weighs about 2.5 pounds. I willbe shaving a little of that off when I streamline them. Fairings?....I thoughtthe intent was low and slow.Curt MerdanFlower Mound, TXWaiting to open my X-mas presents. They rattle like 4130!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:38 pm

Original Posted By: "Barry Davis"
Good catch, Barry.The photo was taken prior to first flight during initial rigging.Dale is correct about the lack of room to install the bolt "properly". This is a good example of a fitting being drawn just a bit too short in the plans.Greg----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:58 pm

Original Posted By: "Catdesigns"
Hmmm... just did a quick calculation based on the numbers provided by Curt.Provided the data is precise, that sounds like a heavy chunk of spruce. 1/2" x 2" x 96" = 96 cu.in., or 0.0555 cu.ft.2.5 lb/.0555 cu.ft. = 45 lb/cu.ft.That's quite a bit higher than the published value of 28 lb/cu.ft.Something doesn't sound right.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:07 pm

Original Posted By: "Piet2112"
Greg , That is my point. The wood gear already adds a lot of weight to the plane so thereis no need to add unnecessary weigh by using heavy wood. You did howevermake me question my assumption so out of curiosity I decided to calculate theamount of wood in the wood gear. Using a streamlined 1-inch by 2.5-inch shapewith the dimensions from the wood gear plans, I calculate approximately 171cubic inches total wood needed or roughly 0.1 cubic feet. Its probably a bitmore but it would take a lot more to be significant. This is very fortunate asit makes the weight calculation easy. It appears that the theoretical differencebetween using spruce versus hickory would be 2.2 pounds. The more commonlyuse ash adds an addition 1 .1 pounds. As they say, a pound here a pound there, it all adds up.--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:44 pm

Original Posted By: Greg Cardinal
Hello Greg, I saw your video of you landing your Piet and the question came up to what size bungee did you use and what was the gross weight of your Piet is ?Ernie Moreno Independence, Or Piet driver N2431 ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:24 pm

Original Posted By: "wayne(at)taildraggersinc.com"

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:31 am

Original Posted By: Ernie Moreno
1/2" bungee cord, empty wt is 620# and gross wt is 1320 but has never flown that heavy. The practical gross wt is more like 1200 - 1250.Greg ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:06 am

Original Posted By: "bender"
Merry Christmas everyone !Hans________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:14 am

Original Posted By: Ben Charvet
i totally agree with not adding more weight than necessary .... i've been throwingall the wood pieces in the air.... the ones that don't come down i put onthe plane and the ones that do come down i cut up till they fly too..43.13 says poplar is actually stronger in compression and in shear than spruce.....seems that would be a good thing on the gearthanks for all the replies...jeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 09:20:22 -0500

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:26 am

Original Posted By: Jim Markle

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:48 pm

Original Posted By: "bender"
EAA Sport Aviation, Jan 2011 - Pg. 92 "Control Cable Tension"--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:39 pm

Original Posted By: Ryan Mueller
i feel like this shouldn't be so hard.... i started trying to build the gear legs...wow..it sucksit looks so simple in the drawings.. i think carving a prop would be easierstopping for the night but not giving upjeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 23:52:01 -0600Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:28 am

Original Posted By: "Clif Dawson"
For what it's worth, this is what I did.The initial fitting was with scrap wood.Once the ends fit the fuselage and theblock at the V then the angles weretransfered to the Fir.And yes, even with a carefully designed andconstructed jig it was still akin to a femaledog.http://www.clifdawson.ca/Homepage4-10-0 ... enpol-List message posted by: "bender" > i feel like this shouldn't be so hard.... i started trying to build the gear legs... wow..it sucks> it looks so simple in the drawings..> jeff________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:08 am

Original Posted By: "Chris"
That's a good point. Let's get somebody to go measurehis existing planes. :-)Clf What would Bernard do, Dan?

Ryan OH NO, here we go again with the "twang" or "dwang" or was it Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________________________________________________________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:17 am

Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
What specifically are you having problems with? Those of us who have done itcan probably help figure out your problem.Biggest thing to do is make sure the ash block is pointing at the tailwheel. Take a string and make sure the top surface of the block is parallelto a line drawn to the tail wheel. Then cut the legs to fill the spacebetween the ash block and the fuselage. As someone already suggested, takea look at what I have about building the wood gear on my web page and askmore question if you need it.ChrisSacramento, CaWestcoastpiet.com-----Original Message-----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:29 am

Original Posted By: "Jerry Dotson"
Charles,Didn't mean to jump on you. We here on the Pietenpol list subscribe to the notion that there are no stupid questions. I would have appreciated this thread myself if I had been in your position. In response to your original query, the compilation of what we have so far is:"FWANG""Peeeng""Thmmmm", SAR method I myself used "thwang" and it has performed beautifully so far. I would really like to be able to reveal what method Bernerd used, so we all could get the last word on this subject, but seeing that I am bound not to open the "Lost Papers of BHP" canister for another 5 months (once per year), I cannot. Now keep in mind that this information may not even be in those papers. Even the Bible is silent on some mundane subjects, such as let's say, how often to get a haircut. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL."Thmmmm", SAR method I myself used "thwang" and it has performed beautifully so far. I would really like to be able to reveal what method Bernerd used, so we all could get the last word on this subject, but seeing that I am bound not to open the "Lost Papers of BHP" canister for another 5 months (once per year), I cannot. Now keep in mind that this information may not even be in those papers. Even the Bible is silent on some mundane subjects, such as let's say, how often to get a haircut. Dan HelsperPoplar Grove, IL.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:19 am

Original Posted By: "bender"
The gear on NX510JD is laminated from red oak, poplar,pecan, ash, and fir. 10---1/4inch layers. All the struts are laminated with 9---1/4 layers with a 3/84130 steel rod sandwiched inside.--------Jerry Dotson59 Daniel Johnson RdBaker, FL 32531Started building NX510JD July, 2009wing, tailfeathers doneusing Lycoming O-235Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/gear ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood legs

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:42 am

Original Posted By: "Charles Campbell"
Hi Jerry,What's the lamination orientation on your struts? 9 1/4 in. laminates seems like a lot. Also, does the 3/8 inch rod carry all the way through & attach to anything, or lust there for reinforcement? I'm planning on wood struts with carbon fiber between the laminations.KIp GardnerOn Dec 28, 2010, at 8:19 AM, Jerry Dotson wrote:> >>> The gear on NX510JD is laminated from red oak, poplar,pecan, ash, > and fir. 10---1/4 inch layers. All the struts are laminated with > 9---1/4 layers with a 3/8 4130 steel rod sandwiched inside.>> --------> Jerry Dotson> 59 Daniel Johnson Rd> Baker, FL 32531>> Started building NX510JD July, 2009> wing, tailfeathers done> using Lycoming O-235>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 781#324781>>> Attachments:>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/gear_8x6_189.jpg> http://forums.matronics.com//files/caba ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:48 am

Original Posted By: Kip and Beth Gardner
i guess what got to me last night was that the flying and glider dimensions werenot working out.. the ash block was too short when the Long cut for the rearleg was made...the ash block needs to be longer i believe. i managed to makethe cuts pretty easy.. by drawing lines around each leg and eyeballing on theband saw.. then i realize the outside bottom brackets i made were off... i literallyblew up the images on a copy machine till the measurements were right ..buti missed the fact that the bottom was about 7 inches long instead of the5 3/4 shown on the drawings even though the other dimensions were correct. i keptwondering how that was going to work with the inside brackets.. i thoughti was being clever tooso its jigged up and three legs may be good.. i just need to make new bracketsand lengthen the ash block i believe and the west coast piet site does get lots of studying..thanksjeffRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:50 am

Original Posted By: "K5YAC"
I don't have my Jan 2011 issue. Guess I need to call EAA.----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:44 am

Original Posted By: helspersew(at)aol.com
I get a haircut once every six months whether I need it or not!!!! But you're right -- the Bible doesn't cover the subject. No mention of haircuts except the one Samson received, and it didn't suggest how often this should happenJack Phillips says "Thummm" is the correct one. I believe that would be a bit less tension than "FWang" and certainly less than "Peeeng". I'm sure that would be way too tight. ----- Original Message -----

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:48 am

Original Posted By: "Gboothe5"
The 3/8 rod goes all the way through. I glued up the struts 5 layers and 4 layers.The I milled a 3/8 half round groove from end to end. Then laminated the2 pieces around the rod with T-88. The 5 layer part will be trailing edge.--------Jerry Dotson59 Daniel Johnson RdBaker, FL 32531Started building NX510JD July, 2009wing, tailfeathers doneusing Lycoming O-235Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:12 am

Original Posted By: Kenneth Bickers
Chuck Campbell wrote:> I don't have my Jan 2011 issue. Guess I need to call EAA.> > ---Just got mine yesterday... don't panic just yet.--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 10:34:50 -0700Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cable Tension

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:42 am

Original Posted By: Kenneth Bickers
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cable Tension

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:15 pm

Original Posted By: airlion
A what conversion? Corvair? Isn't that a car?--------Mark ChouinardWings, Center Section and Empannage framed up - Working on FuselageRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 10:22:49 -0800 (PST)

matronics · Post by **matronics** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:44 pm

Original Posted By: KM Heide CPO/FAAOP