Original Posted By: "Dale Johnson"
Hey all,Would anybody truly "in the know" help me understand why ethanol fuel isconsidered a "no-no" in our type of airplane?I understand that the alcohol can freeze in the tank and lines, but I don'tthink that is an issue with our type of low and slow flying.The other problem I've heard about is "vapor lock". What exactly is thisand why aren't cars lining the sides of the roads because of vapor lock?Thanks,Douwe________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Re: Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Original Posted By: Douwe Blumberg
DouweCars have the fuel pump in the tank with a lot of pressure not gravity fed.Ethanol fuel will asorb water not what you want in the tank.Dale ----- Original Message -----
DouweCars have the fuel pump in the tank with a lot of pressure not gravity fed.Ethanol fuel will asorb water not what you want in the tank.Dale ----- Original Message -----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By: "William Wynne"
Ethanol, as I understand it, will also eat rubber fuel lines and gaskets if theyare not ethanol-compatible.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Ethanol, as I understand it, will also eat rubber fuel lines and gaskets if theyare not ethanol-compatible.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By: Marcus Zechini
DouweLet me share one first hand experience that will illustrate how this could bitesome one. Years ago I was putting auto fuel in my wife's C-85 powered Taylorcraft.The next day it seemed like the cork and wire fuel gauge was lower thanexpected. Inspection shows that the fuel actually had 10% ethanol in it. The Corkon the wire was attacked by the ethanol content in 4 gallons of gas, leftin the tank overnight. The bits of cork were floating on the fuel, but some ofthe reaction was laying in the gascolater.This shows that 100% of your fuel system must be ethanol proof is you are everto use any fuel other than 100LL. I am not sure you can count on auto fuel havingzero ethanol even when it says so. Thus everything, down to the gas cap gasket,the float, the gasket on the bowl of your gascolater, the O-rings in yourfuel valve, and your lines and carb, must be tolerant of ethanol if you considercar gas.Car systems have ZERO to do with plane systems. Modern EFI cars, as pointed outare immune to vapor lock because they hold the fuel at pressure in the system,and it is circulated for cooling. Their tanks are 100% sealed and not vented,and they don't absorb h2o for this reason. The systems and function are so differentthat it is very bad logic to make any conclusion about ethanol in planesbased on car experience.Alcohol effectively will not freeze at flying temps, it was added to the ADI waterinjection on piston airliners for that reason. The issue is that it is hydroscopic,and this is a factor in planes with vented fuel systems and long periodsof inactivity.Vapor pressure on car fuel is very different, and this contributes both to thepotential of carb ice and to vapor lock For those that have not seen it, my wifewrote this story 15 years ago, it has been reprinted many times, but it isstill very valid today:http://www.flycorvair.com/carbice.html-ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:59:52 -0400Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
DouweLet me share one first hand experience that will illustrate how this could bitesome one. Years ago I was putting auto fuel in my wife's C-85 powered Taylorcraft.The next day it seemed like the cork and wire fuel gauge was lower thanexpected. Inspection shows that the fuel actually had 10% ethanol in it. The Corkon the wire was attacked by the ethanol content in 4 gallons of gas, leftin the tank overnight. The bits of cork were floating on the fuel, but some ofthe reaction was laying in the gascolater.This shows that 100% of your fuel system must be ethanol proof is you are everto use any fuel other than 100LL. I am not sure you can count on auto fuel havingzero ethanol even when it says so. Thus everything, down to the gas cap gasket,the float, the gasket on the bowl of your gascolater, the O-rings in yourfuel valve, and your lines and carb, must be tolerant of ethanol if you considercar gas.Car systems have ZERO to do with plane systems. Modern EFI cars, as pointed outare immune to vapor lock because they hold the fuel at pressure in the system,and it is circulated for cooling. Their tanks are 100% sealed and not vented,and they don't absorb h2o for this reason. The systems and function are so differentthat it is very bad logic to make any conclusion about ethanol in planesbased on car experience.Alcohol effectively will not freeze at flying temps, it was added to the ADI waterinjection on piston airliners for that reason. The issue is that it is hydroscopic,and this is a factor in planes with vented fuel systems and long periodsof inactivity.Vapor pressure on car fuel is very different, and this contributes both to thepotential of carb ice and to vapor lock For those that have not seen it, my wifewrote this story 15 years ago, it has been reprinted many times, but it isstill very valid today:http://www.flycorvair.com/carbice.html-ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 10:59:52 -0400Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Re: Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Original Posted By: Marcus Zechini
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Re: Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ethanolfor Continental engines the ethanol will deteriorate the seals inside ourcarbs. not sure about Model As, corvairs or other engines.Water absorbed into the ethanol is a big problem. Also vapor lock at hisaltitude (may not be an issue for us, as you mentioned.)Blue skies,Steve DOn Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> Hey all,>>> Would anybody truly =9Cin the know=9D help me understand why ethanol fuel is> considered a =9Cno-no=9D in our type of airplane?>>> I understand that the alcohol can freeze in the tank and lines, but I> don=99t think that is an issue with our type of low and slow flying.>>> The other problem I=99ve heard about is =9Cvapor lock=9D. What exactly is this> and why aren=99t cars lining the sides of the roads because of vapor lock?>>> Thanks,>>> Douwe>> *>===========.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>======================om/contribution>===========>> *>>-- Blue Skies,Steve D________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ethanolfor Continental engines the ethanol will deteriorate the seals inside ourcarbs. not sure about Model As, corvairs or other engines.Water absorbed into the ethanol is a big problem. Also vapor lock at hisaltitude (may not be an issue for us, as you mentioned.)Blue skies,Steve DOn Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> Hey all,>>> Would anybody truly =9Cin the know=9D help me understand why ethanol fuel is> considered a =9Cno-no=9D in our type of airplane?>>> I understand that the alcohol can freeze in the tank and lines, but I> don=99t think that is an issue with our type of low and slow flying.>>> The other problem I=99ve heard about is =9Cvapor lock=9D. What exactly is this> and why aren=99t cars lining the sides of the roads because of vapor lock?>>> Thanks,>>> Douwe>> *>===========.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>======================om/contribution>===========>> *>>-- Blue Skies,Steve D________________________________________________________________________________
Pietenpol-List: Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop.....
Original Posted By: "aviken"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: EthanolInterestingly you can "wash" ethanol out of your gas by adding water!Seriously, that is a way to remove alcohol.Basic technique is to put in enough water to bond with the alcohol. thenshake or stir the fuel to get it to bond. Then let it sit so that thewater/alcohol mixture settles to the bottom and drain it off.Now you have ethanol free gas. You may want to test it for ethanol and foroctane. Alcohol raises the octane. So removing it will drop octane. It maystill be high enough.Blue Skies,Steve DOn Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:06 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote:> jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>>> Ethanol, as I understand it, will also eat rubber fuel lines and gaskets> if they are not ethanol-compatible.>> --------> Semper Fi,>> Terry Hand> Athens, GA>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 446992>>-- Blue Skies,Steve D________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop.....
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: EthanolInterestingly you can "wash" ethanol out of your gas by adding water!Seriously, that is a way to remove alcohol.Basic technique is to put in enough water to bond with the alcohol. thenshake or stir the fuel to get it to bond. Then let it sit so that thewater/alcohol mixture settles to the bottom and drain it off.Now you have ethanol free gas. You may want to test it for ethanol and foroctane. Alcohol raises the octane. So removing it will drop octane. It maystill be high enough.Blue Skies,Steve DOn Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:06 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote:> jarheadpilot82(at)hotmail.com>>> Ethanol, as I understand it, will also eat rubber fuel lines and gaskets> if they are not ethanol-compatible.>> --------> Semper Fi,>> Terry Hand> Athens, GA>>> Read this topic online here:>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 446992>>-- Blue Skies,Steve D________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop.....
Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
Original Posted By: "DonkDoug"
It is great to see someone else that appreciates the quietness of your work shop.. I suppose it is a mixed blessing that hardly anyone ever comes to my shop. Maybe it is because it is hidden behind my house in the corner of my yard. True I would love to see people who appreciate this little airplane and theeffort it takes to build one . I do love the build that is so true, but mygoal is to fly it and not spend years on this project. Who knows I might haveanother project in mind!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
It is great to see someone else that appreciates the quietness of your work shop.. I suppose it is a mixed blessing that hardly anyone ever comes to my shop. Maybe it is because it is hidden behind my house in the corner of my yard. True I would love to see people who appreciate this little airplane and theeffort it takes to build one . I do love the build that is so true, but mygoal is to fly it and not spend years on this project. Who knows I might haveanother project in mind!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
Original Posted By: Ryan M
Jim,Have you ever read any of Tracy Kidder's books? If he were to build a Piet andwrite about the experience it would be a classic, at least amongst airplane folks.It would also generate interest in home building and aviation, I suspect,with people who formally might not had an interest in that sort of thing.If you have not read him you might give him a try. It may give you some ideasfor what you are trying to do. His book titled House would be a good one to startwith.Doug WrightStillwater, OKRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:02:29 +0000 (UTC)
Jim,Have you ever read any of Tracy Kidder's books? If he were to build a Piet andwrite about the experience it would be a classic, at least amongst airplane folks.It would also generate interest in home building and aviation, I suspect,with people who formally might not had an interest in that sort of thing.If you have not read him you might give him a try. It may give you some ideasfor what you are trying to do. His book titled House would be a good one to startwith.Doug WrightStillwater, OKRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:02:29 +0000 (UTC)
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
I applaud builders like yourself who make progress quicker/more effectively andare not so focused on a serene workshop - well done...! So neat that this "buildingan airplane" thing can be done is so many different ways. One important aspect for me is keeping my neighbors from being worried/concernedthat I am building an airplane - since my shop is in the garage of my condoand there are people living above these garages.....--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 20:16:09 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
I applaud builders like yourself who make progress quicker/more effectively andare not so focused on a serene workshop - well done...! So neat that this "buildingan airplane" thing can be done is so many different ways. One important aspect for me is keeping my neighbors from being worried/concernedthat I am building an airplane - since my shop is in the garage of my condoand there are people living above these garages.....--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 20:16:09 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Westcoastpiet has lot of pictures to use in making your tailwheel--------Earl BrownI may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where Iintended to be.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Westcoastpiet has lot of pictures to use in making your tailwheel--------Earl BrownI may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where Iintended to be.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By: Stuart Brown
Douwe; while I don't claim to be "in the know", as a fire protection engineer Ido have some knowledge of fuels and I can read a table of physical propertiesof fuels. Strictly from the "fuel as energy" standpoint, ethanol has an energycontent of about 11,590 Btu per lb and gasoline (including 100LL avgas) hasan energy content of about 18,700 Btu per lb. This means when you're burninga blend of gasoline and ethanol, you're leaving some power on the table. Herein Oregon, regulations mandate the sale of "E10" in some areas of the stateand at certain times of the year. This is a blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanoland it results in a fuel with somewhere between 3% and 4% less energy thanstraight gas. To put it in practical terms, but greatly oversimplifying, yourengine that produces 100HP running on avgas will only produce 96-97HP on E10mogas. Granted, the E10 will cost quite a bit less and that's the attractionof it. As you've read from other posts here, there are downsides and one ofthem is the fact that ethanol is incompatible with a lot of materials.Another downside is the potential for vapor lock. Ethanol has a lower boilingpoint than straight gasoline, so it is less tolerant of high temperatures underthe cowling and it can vaporize in the fuel lines or anywhere it's close toa hot surface. A vapor pocket or bubble in the fuel system can stop the flowof fuel... "vapor lock". The problem is increased in the summer, of course, becausewhen we land with a nice warmed-up engine and taxi over to the fuel pumpand shut down, the areas inside the cowling become heat-soaked and since thereis no flow of cooler fuel in the lines when the engine is shut down, the fuelcan vaporize and lock the system, making startup more difficult.The reason why you don't see cars sitting all over the shoulders of the road withvapor lock is because most vehicles now are fuel injected or they have fuelpumps that deliver the fuel under pressure, not gravity, and the boiling pointof a liquid increases as the pressure increases. You know this from your campingexperiences when you try to boil water while camping up in the mountains.It boils at a lower temperature up where the atmospheric pressure is lower,and your beans never cook! Of course this same effect means that flying at higheraltitudes lowers the boiling point of fuel that contains ethanol, but mostPiets fly down pretty low where that isn't a big factor. More than you wantedto know, I'm sure ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Douwe; while I don't claim to be "in the know", as a fire protection engineer Ido have some knowledge of fuels and I can read a table of physical propertiesof fuels. Strictly from the "fuel as energy" standpoint, ethanol has an energycontent of about 11,590 Btu per lb and gasoline (including 100LL avgas) hasan energy content of about 18,700 Btu per lb. This means when you're burninga blend of gasoline and ethanol, you're leaving some power on the table. Herein Oregon, regulations mandate the sale of "E10" in some areas of the stateand at certain times of the year. This is a blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanoland it results in a fuel with somewhere between 3% and 4% less energy thanstraight gas. To put it in practical terms, but greatly oversimplifying, yourengine that produces 100HP running on avgas will only produce 96-97HP on E10mogas. Granted, the E10 will cost quite a bit less and that's the attractionof it. As you've read from other posts here, there are downsides and one ofthem is the fact that ethanol is incompatible with a lot of materials.Another downside is the potential for vapor lock. Ethanol has a lower boilingpoint than straight gasoline, so it is less tolerant of high temperatures underthe cowling and it can vaporize in the fuel lines or anywhere it's close toa hot surface. A vapor pocket or bubble in the fuel system can stop the flowof fuel... "vapor lock". The problem is increased in the summer, of course, becausewhen we land with a nice warmed-up engine and taxi over to the fuel pumpand shut down, the areas inside the cowling become heat-soaked and since thereis no flow of cooler fuel in the lines when the engine is shut down, the fuelcan vaporize and lock the system, making startup more difficult.The reason why you don't see cars sitting all over the shoulders of the road withvapor lock is because most vehicles now are fuel injected or they have fuelpumps that deliver the fuel under pressure, not gravity, and the boiling pointof a liquid increases as the pressure increases. You know this from your campingexperiences when you try to boil water while camping up in the mountains.It boils at a lower temperature up where the atmospheric pressure is lower,and your beans never cook! Of course this same effect means that flying at higheraltitudes lowers the boiling point of fuel that contains ethanol, but mostPiets fly down pretty low where that isn't a big factor. More than you wantedto know, I'm sure ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Pietenpol-List: Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop.....
Original Posted By: "aviken"
Steve, I have been "washing" Ethanol from gasoline and burning it in my old Bonanza foryears. It's a simple process and requires patience. I determine how much ethanolis in the fuel, then add enough water to produce a 50/50 mixture of waterand alcohol. I process 45 gallons at a time as my cone shaped tank only holds50 gallons. The yield is 40 gallons of Ethanol free gasoline, if the gas contains10% Ethanol. You loose about 3 octane points when the ethanol is removed.Right now in NJ, avgas is $5.35/ gallon and regular gas is $1.98. My finishedproduct cost is about $2.20/ gallon and I burn about 12 gallons per hour. $58.50/hour v.s. $24.20. StuSent from my iPad________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop.....
Steve, I have been "washing" Ethanol from gasoline and burning it in my old Bonanza foryears. It's a simple process and requires patience. I determine how much ethanolis in the fuel, then add enough water to produce a 50/50 mixture of waterand alcohol. I process 45 gallons at a time as my cone shaped tank only holds50 gallons. The yield is 40 gallons of Ethanol free gasoline, if the gas contains10% Ethanol. You loose about 3 octane points when the ethanol is removed.Right now in NJ, avgas is $5.35/ gallon and regular gas is $1.98. My finishedproduct cost is about $2.20/ gallon and I burn about 12 gallons per hour. $58.50/hour v.s. $24.20. StuSent from my iPad________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop.....
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By: John Cox
By the way, I love your shop and your building style.... My next door neighbor's bed room window is pretty close to my small shop.I have to pace myself on those nights when I can't sleep and I am up at 3:304:00 AM. I want to work in the shop, but my power tools are too noisy and hammeringis also a problem, so I have to find something quiet to work on.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 23:30:13 -0400Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
By the way, I love your shop and your building style.... My next door neighbor's bed room window is pretty close to my small shop.I have to pace myself on those nights when I can't sleep and I am up at 3:304:00 AM. I want to work in the shop, but my power tools are too noisy and hammeringis also a problem, so I have to find something quiet to work on.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2015 23:30:13 -0400Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
I'm assuming you have Two Years Before The Mast and Voyage of the Cachalot?This message is Piet related because there are wings and control cables involved.ClifLife is uncertain. Eat dessert first.>> Clif: thank you for the book recommendations. I've always wanted to learn > how to sail and "The Craft of Sail" sounds like a wonderful addition to my > reading stack for this fall and winter! I'll nestle it in between > Hornblower and Aubrey & Maturin books ;o)> Oscar Zuniga________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
I'm assuming you have Two Years Before The Mast and Voyage of the Cachalot?This message is Piet related because there are wings and control cables involved.ClifLife is uncertain. Eat dessert first.>> Clif: thank you for the book recommendations. I've always wanted to learn > how to sail and "The Craft of Sail" sounds like a wonderful addition to my > reading stack for this fall and winter! I'll nestle it in between > Hornblower and Aubrey & Maturin books ;o)> Oscar Zuniga________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In?
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Clif; of course I have "Two Years Before the Mast", but I have not read Bullen's"The Cruise of the Cachalot". I see that it's available as a free downloade-book, so I'll download it. Thanks for letting me know, since I really enjoygood books about the days of sail and tall ships.Other than perhaps the word 'cruise', there is nothing Piet related in this postso I've changed the subject line and noted that it's Off Topic.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Clif; of course I have "Two Years Before the Mast", but I have not read Bullen's"The Cruise of the Cachalot". I see that it's available as a free downloade-book, so I'll download it. Thanks for letting me know, since I really enjoygood books about the days of sail and tall ships.Other than perhaps the word 'cruise', there is nothing Piet related in this postso I've changed the subject line and noted that it's Off Topic.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Thanks everybody for your input, William, your info was very informative. Iappreciate it.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks everybody for your input, William, your info was very informative. Iappreciate it.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By:> * *"John Cox"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: EthanolNew car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100%gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol.Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85%ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow thefuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice ofall three at some places.According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanolwriter) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, andrubber.Blue Skies,Steve D.On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, wrote:> Oscar--> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am> really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone> in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a> test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And> I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can> get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.> Cheers, Mac in Newport>> ------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: EthanolNew car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100%gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol.Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85%ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow thefuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice ofall three at some places.According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanolwriter) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, andrubber.Blue Skies,Steve D.On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, wrote:> Oscar--> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am> really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone> in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a> test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And> I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can> get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.> Cheers, Mac in Newport>> ------------------------------
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By:> "John Cox"
I imagine vehicle age makes a difference. I have a 2001 Toyota Sienna van that is supposed to make 26mpg & it stays pretty consistently at 21 on 10% EtOH gas. I may try Mac's experiment, the premium differential around here is less than 25%.Kip GardnerOn Sep 16, 2015, at 9:30 AM, Steven Dortch wrote:> New car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100% gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol. Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85% ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow the fuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.> > In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice of all three at some places.> > According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanol writer) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, and rubber.> > Blue Skies,> Steve D.> > On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, wrote:> Oscar--> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.> Cheers, Mac in Newport>
I imagine vehicle age makes a difference. I have a 2001 Toyota Sienna van that is supposed to make 26mpg & it stays pretty consistently at 21 on 10% EtOH gas. I may try Mac's experiment, the premium differential around here is less than 25%.Kip GardnerOn Sep 16, 2015, at 9:30 AM, Steven Dortch wrote:> New car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100% gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol. Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85% ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow the fuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.> > In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice of all three at some places.> > According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanol writer) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, and rubber.> > Blue Skies,> Steve D.> > On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, wrote:> Oscar--> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.> Cheers, Mac in Newport>
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By:>> * *"John Cox"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: EthanolIn my Bonanza, I run 100LL in the wing tanks. If available I run unleadedMOGAS in the AUX (Baggage) tank. the system is a pressure carb and pumps13 Gallons to the carb and returns 3.5 gallons to the left tank. So I endup with a Mix in the left tank and Do about 1/2 of my cruising on the auxtank.The old bird (1948) seems to prefer the autofuel. the 100 LL keeps metrying to keep the lead burned off of the plugs.Note! 100LL is very stable. It can burn cleanly after 1 to two years ingood storage. The modern MOGAS is not very stable. It goes bad (separatesinto varnish and other chemicals) after a couple of months. When I put myBonanza in storage I put 100 LL in all three tanks.Just a point of reference.Blue Skies,Steve DOn Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Kip Gardner wrote:> I imagine vehicle age makes a difference. I have a 2001 Toyota Sienna van> that is supposed to make 26mpg & it stays pretty consistently at 21 on 10%> EtOH gas. I may try Mac's experiment, the premium differential around here> is less than 25%.>> Kip Gardner>> On Sep 16, 2015, at 9:30 AM, Steven Dortch > wrote:>> New car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100%> gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol.> Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85%> ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow the> fuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.>> In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice> of all three at some places.>> According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanol> writer) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, and> rubber.>> Blue Skies,> Steve D.>> On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, wrote:>>> Oscar-->> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am>> really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone>> in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a>> test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And>> I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can>> get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.>> Cheers, Mac in Newport>>>> ------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: EthanolIn my Bonanza, I run 100LL in the wing tanks. If available I run unleadedMOGAS in the AUX (Baggage) tank. the system is a pressure carb and pumps13 Gallons to the carb and returns 3.5 gallons to the left tank. So I endup with a Mix in the left tank and Do about 1/2 of my cruising on the auxtank.The old bird (1948) seems to prefer the autofuel. the 100 LL keeps metrying to keep the lead burned off of the plugs.Note! 100LL is very stable. It can burn cleanly after 1 to two years ingood storage. The modern MOGAS is not very stable. It goes bad (separatesinto varnish and other chemicals) after a couple of months. When I put myBonanza in storage I put 100 LL in all three tanks.Just a point of reference.Blue Skies,Steve DOn Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Kip Gardner wrote:> I imagine vehicle age makes a difference. I have a 2001 Toyota Sienna van> that is supposed to make 26mpg & it stays pretty consistently at 21 on 10%> EtOH gas. I may try Mac's experiment, the premium differential around here> is less than 25%.>> Kip Gardner>> On Sep 16, 2015, at 9:30 AM, Steven Dortch > wrote:>> New car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100%> gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol.> Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85%> ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow the> fuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.>> In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice> of all three at some places.>> According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanol> writer) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, and> rubber.>> Blue Skies,> Steve D.>> On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, wrote:>>> Oscar-->> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am>> really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone>> in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a>> test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And>> I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can>> get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.>> Cheers, Mac in Newport>>>> ------------------------------
Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Marcus,I=99m glad you thought of this. We=99ve been having this discussion down here in South Carolina for a while now. Unfortunately I=99m still in phase one of my fly-off and probably won=99t have enough hours to make that trip, as much as I would like. Maybe in the spring or other date would be good for me. Please keep in touch. Thanks,JackFord model AWire wheelsphase 1> On Sep 16, 2015, at 7:33 AM, Marcus Zechini wrote:> > Pietenpeople:> > I am trying to get an idea of who would show for a Fly-In at 3VA7 near Winchester, Virginia ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/3VA7 ) the 3rd weekend in October.> > "Camping" would be in my home 4 miles from the field. I am providing dinner (of course, libations, too) and breakfast.> > RSVP so I can plan, and stock up.> > -Zeke> Grega w/C-85-12> > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Marcus,I=99m glad you thought of this. We=99ve been having this discussion down here in South Carolina for a while now. Unfortunately I=99m still in phase one of my fly-off and probably won=99t have enough hours to make that trip, as much as I would like. Maybe in the spring or other date would be good for me. Please keep in touch. Thanks,JackFord model AWire wheelsphase 1> On Sep 16, 2015, at 7:33 AM, Marcus Zechini wrote:> > Pietenpeople:> > I am trying to get an idea of who would show for a Fly-In at 3VA7 near Winchester, Virginia ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/3VA7 ) the 3rd weekend in October.> > "Camping" would be in my home 4 miles from the field. I am providing dinner (of course, libations, too) and breakfast.> > RSVP so I can plan, and stock up.> > -Zeke> Grega w/C-85-12> > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Hello WF2.... Thx, I am using 0.063 5052 sheet for the tank. Since I hire out the welding I amnot exactly sure which wire Mike (Ready Weld) is using with his TIG weldingtorch. Mike has been welding professionally for over 20 years so I yield thosedecisions to his talent.Ordering an additional sump (from a Stearman) today......... (progress one dayat a time!)--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:13:05 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
Hello WF2.... Thx, I am using 0.063 5052 sheet for the tank. Since I hire out the welding I amnot exactly sure which wire Mike (Ready Weld) is using with his TIG weldingtorch. Mike has been welding professionally for over 20 years so I yield thosedecisions to his talent.Ordering an additional sump (from a Stearman) today......... (progress one dayat a time!)--------Jake Schultz - curator,Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:13:05 -0500Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol