Original Posted By: "tools"
Hello, I am new to the forum. I'm building a Piet with a Continental A65 or C85engine.My wood is arriving soon, but I have a bit of a conundrum- I had planned on buildingthe 173.375" fuselage (as shown in the supplemental plans) along with thePietnepol supplied plan for a Continental engine mount.Then I ordered the Kerri-Ann plans for the front door mod, which is really nice.Unfortunately, it looks as though the plans are only for the 163" fuselage,and not the 173.375" fuselage. And I really want a door...Was the 173.375" fuselage designed specifically for the Corvair & Continental engines?( I sometimes hear a fuselage referred to as the "Corvair Fuselage").Because I want a door, I might be stuck with building the 163" fuselage, but Ifirst need to make sure that I'm not going to run into issues down the road ifI build a 163" fuselage and combine it with the Continental engine mount inPietenpol's plans. I really don't want to be left having to draw up my own planfor an engine mount.I have read where people have extended their Continental mounts by 1-2 inches inanticipation of CG problems. But I don't know which fuselage they were building.I'm 200 lbs and I'm planning on putting the fuel tank in the wing, and I'm justtrying to plan ahead so that I can avoid having to deal with a CG that is toofar aft.If I want to use the Pietenpol drawing for a Continental engine mount, do I haveto build the 173.375" fuselage, or will that mount work with the 163" fuselageas well (as far as the resultant CG is concerned)?Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, nowhere on the plans does it specify what the angle of the firewall bulkheadis in relation to the top longhorn... I assume it's 90 degrees, but I'm practicingnot assuming things since I'm not building a kitchen cabinet here :DThanks for any replies- I'm hoping to understand this completely so that I canstart laying out the jig for the fuselage.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "Dave'sPiet"
I'm five ten, 185. Actually fit in the short wood fuse fine which surprised me.Also have a a65. Think it's the plans continental mount. Cabanes an inch or twolonger and angled back the fairly normal about four inches. Wing tank. Mycg is well located.Best thing to do is find each variant and sit in one! Brodhead works GREAT!I have a fuse layout table if ya want it. It's orphaned and in Oshkosh. The plane,not built on that table, is near Chatt TN. Let me know if I can help.The firewall is at 90 degrees.Gotta run!ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
I'm five ten, 185. Actually fit in the short wood fuse fine which surprised me.Also have a a65. Think it's the plans continental mount. Cabanes an inch or twolonger and angled back the fairly normal about four inches. Wing tank. Mycg is well located.Best thing to do is find each variant and sit in one! Brodhead works GREAT!I have a fuse layout table if ya want it. It's orphaned and in Oshkosh. The plane,not built on that table, is near Chatt TN. Let me know if I can help.The firewall is at 90 degrees.Gotta run!ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Thanks Tools... I do appreciate the offer on the layup table, but I have builtmine already.I'm 6'0" and so is my girlfriend. My son is 6'3". She's 160 and he's about 180.I plan on raising the wing a couple of inches as well to help them have a bettertime up front. It seems that builders have done this thus far with no illeffects.I assume by the "short fuselage" you mean the 163" "Improved Pietenpol 33-34 design,and not the 1932 (even shorter) design?My next concern is landing gear axle placement, which is discussed at length atthe westcoastpiet site, however, it does not talk about the effect of havingto move the wing back, and I know that the axle needs to be set a certain numberof degrees forward of the CG measured at the wing. DO builders think this through,or do they simply take a SWAG in the beginning and then accept the resultwhen it's finished? Not knowing (for sure) where my Continental with a plansbuilt mount on a 163" fuselage and a 2 inch wing raise is going to send theCG, makes me a little hesitant to start cutting wood... I know that 17 inchesaft of firewall is the axle location given by the 33-34 plans for a wood axleand large wheels- but I don't know whether a Continental & mount & my weightwill make that a not-so-great place to have the gear, especially when I have tomove the wing back later.. Pietenpol has the cabane struts vertical in his drawings.Moving the wing aft seems to be a later idea employed to deal with theaft CG's that builders ended up with?SO many questions, I know... But I can't afford to build the airplane twice andcertainly don't want to tear it apart or add 10 lbs of lead after I build itto fix a CG problem!!On another note, how does your Piet climb-out in the summer with 2 people onboard?Continental engines are becoming VERY expensive and the cost difference betweenan A65 and a C85 is quite large when considering an engine that isn't timed-out.I'd love to be able to go with an A65, but a 200 ft per min rate of climbgets scary when crossing mountainous terrain...Thanks for your input,.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Thanks Tools... I do appreciate the offer on the layup table, but I have builtmine already.I'm 6'0" and so is my girlfriend. My son is 6'3". She's 160 and he's about 180.I plan on raising the wing a couple of inches as well to help them have a bettertime up front. It seems that builders have done this thus far with no illeffects.I assume by the "short fuselage" you mean the 163" "Improved Pietenpol 33-34 design,and not the 1932 (even shorter) design?My next concern is landing gear axle placement, which is discussed at length atthe westcoastpiet site, however, it does not talk about the effect of havingto move the wing back, and I know that the axle needs to be set a certain numberof degrees forward of the CG measured at the wing. DO builders think this through,or do they simply take a SWAG in the beginning and then accept the resultwhen it's finished? Not knowing (for sure) where my Continental with a plansbuilt mount on a 163" fuselage and a 2 inch wing raise is going to send theCG, makes me a little hesitant to start cutting wood... I know that 17 inchesaft of firewall is the axle location given by the 33-34 plans for a wood axleand large wheels- but I don't know whether a Continental & mount & my weightwill make that a not-so-great place to have the gear, especially when I have tomove the wing back later.. Pietenpol has the cabane struts vertical in his drawings.Moving the wing aft seems to be a later idea employed to deal with theaft CG's that builders ended up with?SO many questions, I know... But I can't afford to build the airplane twice andcertainly don't want to tear it apart or add 10 lbs of lead after I build itto fix a CG problem!!On another note, how does your Piet climb-out in the summer with 2 people onboard?Continental engines are becoming VERY expensive and the cost difference betweenan A65 and a C85 is quite large when considering an engine that isn't timed-out.I'd love to be able to go with an A65, but a 200 ft per min rate of climbgets scary when crossing mountainous terrain...Thanks for your input,.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "tools"
Thanks Vic- that was very helpful.DavidRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Thanks Vic- that was very helpful.DavidRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
>> Pietenpol-List: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By:>> "Dave'sPiet"
Very interesting posts lately. How much higher than plans specs can a person raisethe wing? What about dihedral and incidence. BHP says in f and g manualrig flat. Could dihedral improve roll stability? Also, If incidence were less,wouldn't speed increase a bit? The same full stall landing speed could be achievedby slightly longer gear,yes? Ideas?Sent from my iPhone> On Feb 20, 2016, at 9:59 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> > > Hi Dave,> > Welcome!> > I have a short ( first version) fuse with a c-90. > > RE gear position; if building again, I'd follow William follow advice in hisarticle > In the bpa newsletter and available at other places on line. Harder to put onthe nose, though I will say that I believe the gear further back makes her easierin a crosswind.> > I really wish the pilots seat back was slanted more for comfort which makes melean towards the long fuselage. Making the steel version will save some weightif you can weld> > With those passenger and pilot weights I say go for the larger engine. Mightbe a bit more expensive but You won't care about that after your first flighton a hot day with two people.> > FYI, people have added a couple feet to the span...> > Definitely raise the wing a couple inches to ease front out ingress and egress.> > Can't speak in the door. Heard its helpful but not sure if it offsets the extrafew lbs> > Build it light > > Douwe> > >> On Feb 20, 2016, at 1:00 AM, Pietenpol-List Digest Server wrote:>> >> *>> >> =================================================>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive>> =================================================>> >> Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... ml&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> Text Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... xt&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> >> ===============================================>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive>> ===============================================>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------->> Pietenpol-List Digest Archive>> --->> Total Messages Posted Fri 02/19/16: 7>> ---------------------------------------------------------->> >> >> Today's Message Index:>> ---------------------->> >> 1. 12:23 AM - Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 2. 06:37 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> 3. 08:47 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 4. 10:18 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Bill Church)>> 5. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build! (vic groah)>> 6. 03:43 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build(Dave'sPiet)>> 7. 06:04 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________>> >> >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto>> build!
Very interesting posts lately. How much higher than plans specs can a person raisethe wing? What about dihedral and incidence. BHP says in f and g manualrig flat. Could dihedral improve roll stability? Also, If incidence were less,wouldn't speed increase a bit? The same full stall landing speed could be achievedby slightly longer gear,yes? Ideas?Sent from my iPhone> On Feb 20, 2016, at 9:59 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> > > Hi Dave,> > Welcome!> > I have a short ( first version) fuse with a c-90. > > RE gear position; if building again, I'd follow William follow advice in hisarticle > In the bpa newsletter and available at other places on line. Harder to put onthe nose, though I will say that I believe the gear further back makes her easierin a crosswind.> > I really wish the pilots seat back was slanted more for comfort which makes melean towards the long fuselage. Making the steel version will save some weightif you can weld> > With those passenger and pilot weights I say go for the larger engine. Mightbe a bit more expensive but You won't care about that after your first flighton a hot day with two people.> > FYI, people have added a couple feet to the span...> > Definitely raise the wing a couple inches to ease front out ingress and egress.> > Can't speak in the door. Heard its helpful but not sure if it offsets the extrafew lbs> > Build it light > > Douwe> > >> On Feb 20, 2016, at 1:00 AM, Pietenpol-List Digest Server wrote:>> >> *>> >> =================================================>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive>> =================================================>> >> Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... ml&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> Text Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... xt&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> >> ===============================================>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive>> ===============================================>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------->> Pietenpol-List Digest Archive>> --->> Total Messages Posted Fri 02/19/16: 7>> ---------------------------------------------------------->> >> >> Today's Message Index:>> ---------------------->> >> 1. 12:23 AM - Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 2. 06:37 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> 3. 08:47 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 4. 10:18 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Bill Church)>> 5. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build! (vic groah)>> 6. 03:43 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build(Dave'sPiet)>> 7. 06:04 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________>> >> >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto>> build!
>> Pietenpol-List: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By:>> "Dave'sPiet"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse choicesVery interesting posts lately. How much higher than plans specs can a person raisethe wing? What about dihedral and incidence. BHP says in f and g manualrig flat. Could dihedral improve roll stability? Also, If incidence were less,wouldn't speed increase a bit? The same full stall landing speed could be achievedby slightly longer gear,yes? Ideas?Sent from my iPhone> On Feb 20, 2016, at 9:59 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> > > Hi Dave,> > Welcome!> > I have a short ( first version) fuse with a c-90. > > RE gear position; if building again, I'd follow William follow advice in hisarticle > In the bpa newsletter and available at other places on line. Harder to put onthe nose, though I will say that I believe the gear further back makes her easierin a crosswind.> > I really wish the pilots seat back was slanted more for comfort which makes melean towards the long fuselage. Making the steel version will save some weightif you can weld> > With those passenger and pilot weights I say go for the larger engine. Mightbe a bit more expensive but You won't care about that after your first flighton a hot day with two people.> > FYI, people have added a couple feet to the span...> > Definitely raise the wing a couple inches to ease front out ingress and egress.> > Can't speak in the door. Heard its helpful but not sure if it offsets the extrafew lbs> > Build it light > > Douwe> > >> On Feb 20, 2016, at 1:00 AM, Pietenpol-List Digest Server wrote:>> >> *>> >> =================================================>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive>> =================================================>> >> Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... ml&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> Text Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... xt&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> >> ===============================================>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive>> ===============================================>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------->> Pietenpol-List Digest Archive>> --->> Total Messages Posted Fri 02/19/16: 7>> ---------------------------------------------------------->> >> >> Today's Message Index:>> ---------------------->> >> 1. 12:23 AM - Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 2. 06:37 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> 3. 08:47 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 4. 10:18 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Bill Church)>> 5. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage tobuild! (vic groah)>> 6. 03:43 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build(Dave'sPiet)>> 7. 06:04 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________>> >> >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto>> build!
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuse choicesVery interesting posts lately. How much higher than plans specs can a person raisethe wing? What about dihedral and incidence. BHP says in f and g manualrig flat. Could dihedral improve roll stability? Also, If incidence were less,wouldn't speed increase a bit? The same full stall landing speed could be achievedby slightly longer gear,yes? Ideas?Sent from my iPhone> On Feb 20, 2016, at 9:59 AM, Douwe Blumberg wrote:> > > Hi Dave,> > Welcome!> > I have a short ( first version) fuse with a c-90. > > RE gear position; if building again, I'd follow William follow advice in hisarticle > In the bpa newsletter and available at other places on line. Harder to put onthe nose, though I will say that I believe the gear further back makes her easierin a crosswind.> > I really wish the pilots seat back was slanted more for comfort which makes melean towards the long fuselage. Making the steel version will save some weightif you can weld> > With those passenger and pilot weights I say go for the larger engine. Mightbe a bit more expensive but You won't care about that after your first flighton a hot day with two people.> > FYI, people have added a couple feet to the span...> > Definitely raise the wing a couple inches to ease front out ingress and egress.> > Can't speak in the door. Heard its helpful but not sure if it offsets the extrafew lbs> > Build it light > > Douwe> > >> On Feb 20, 2016, at 1:00 AM, Pietenpol-List Digest Server wrote:>> >> *>> >> =================================================>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive>> =================================================>> >> Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >> of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >> >> HTML Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... ml&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> Text Version:>> >> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestv ... xt&Chapter 16-02-19&Archive=Pietenpol>> >> >> ===============================================>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive>> ===============================================>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------->> Pietenpol-List Digest Archive>> --->> Total Messages Posted Fri 02/19/16: 7>> ---------------------------------------------------------->> >> >> Today's Message Index:>> ---------------------->> >> 1. 12:23 AM - Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 2. 06:37 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> 3. 08:47 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Dave'sPiet)>> 4. 10:18 AM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(Bill Church)>> 5. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage tobuild! (vic groah)>> 6. 03:43 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build(Dave'sPiet)>> 7. 06:04 PM - Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage to build!(tools)>> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________>> >> >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto>> build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "Dave'sPiet"
I believe the BHP plans make note of adding a very small amount of dihedral (1"at each tip?), for aesthetic purposes because the wing looks as though it isdrooping at the ends even when it is perfectly flat.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
I believe the BHP plans make note of adding a very small amount of dihedral (1"at each tip?), for aesthetic purposes because the wing looks as though it isdrooping at the ends even when it is perfectly flat.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Doc You're amazing! Looking forward to seeing you this July John RecineSent from my iPhone> On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Donald A Mosher wrote:> > andrea (andrea(at)modelberg.it) speaking about wooden landing gear and shock cords asked "how many loops and what cross section are you guys using?" That info was not included in the Air Camper plans> in the 1932 Flying Manual.> > However Bernard wrote on page 34 of the 1933 issue of the Flying Manual, the one detailing building of the Sky Scout - "we had better put on some safety device to keep the ship from dropping to the ground if the shock cord breaks, since it seems that everybody has trouble wrapping shock cord. Here is the method we use: First, cut a piece of leather to fit around the bottom of the landing gear vee, and lace it on with lace leather. Now take 6 ft. of 1/2" shock cord and have someone hold it about half way up on the outside of the front landing gear strut. Take the other end and pass it under the landing gear vee, over the axle, under the landing gear, over the axle, under the vee on the inside of the first wrap, over the axle on the outside of the first wrap and under the vee on the inside of the last wrap until you have three wraps pulled quite tight."> > "The cord should be just long enough to make a good square knot and to permit taping of the ends. This method makes each wrap about the same length and you will not have any trouble with your shock cord cutting. The landing gear should give not over one inch with a full load in the ship, but neither should it be any tighter."> > I know that this method is in the Sky Scout construction write up, but Bernard advised people to have both the 1932 and the 1933 Flying Manuals to cover everything. > > The 1933 Flying Manual also says on page 30: "I wish to call attention to the brace right back of the bottom beam. This was changed from the plans of the Air Camper, and I advise all of you who have not built up your wing ribs to build them this way." So the Air Camper ribs in the 1934 Flying Manual had an erroneous brace position shown which was corrected in the 1933 Sky Scout Flying Manual. ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Doc You're amazing! Looking forward to seeing you this July John RecineSent from my iPhone> On Feb 21, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Donald A Mosher wrote:> > andrea (andrea(at)modelberg.it) speaking about wooden landing gear and shock cords asked "how many loops and what cross section are you guys using?" That info was not included in the Air Camper plans> in the 1932 Flying Manual.> > However Bernard wrote on page 34 of the 1933 issue of the Flying Manual, the one detailing building of the Sky Scout - "we had better put on some safety device to keep the ship from dropping to the ground if the shock cord breaks, since it seems that everybody has trouble wrapping shock cord. Here is the method we use: First, cut a piece of leather to fit around the bottom of the landing gear vee, and lace it on with lace leather. Now take 6 ft. of 1/2" shock cord and have someone hold it about half way up on the outside of the front landing gear strut. Take the other end and pass it under the landing gear vee, over the axle, under the landing gear, over the axle, under the vee on the inside of the first wrap, over the axle on the outside of the first wrap and under the vee on the inside of the last wrap until you have three wraps pulled quite tight."> > "The cord should be just long enough to make a good square knot and to permit taping of the ends. This method makes each wrap about the same length and you will not have any trouble with your shock cord cutting. The landing gear should give not over one inch with a full load in the ship, but neither should it be any tighter."> > I know that this method is in the Sky Scout construction write up, but Bernard advised people to have both the 1932 and the 1933 Flying Manuals to cover everything. > > The 1933 Flying Manual also says on page 30: "I wish to call attention to the brace right back of the bottom beam. This was changed from the plans of the Air Camper, and I advise all of you who have not built up your wing ribs to build them this way." So the Air Camper ribs in the 1934 Flying Manual had an erroneous brace position shown which was corrected in the 1933 Sky Scout Flying Manual. ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Actually, no, the plans do NOT show any dihedral.Dave's Piet wrote:> I believe the BHP plans make note of adding a very small amount of dihedral (1"at each tip?), for aesthetic purposes because the wing looks as though it isdrooping at the ends even when it is perfectly flat.> Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Actually, no, the plans do NOT show any dihedral.Dave's Piet wrote:> I believe the BHP plans make note of adding a very small amount of dihedral (1"at each tip?), for aesthetic purposes because the wing looks as though it isdrooping at the ends even when it is perfectly flat.> Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Original Posted By: "Bill Church"
Dave,What you nee to take into account is "where are the differences between the longand short fuselages located?" If you study the plans, you will see that certainbays are longer, and others remain unchanged. Some of the additional lengthis located ahead of the CG, and some is located behind. Ultimately, the goalis to ensure that the CG within the acceptable range, relative to the wingleading edge. By shifting the wing back, what you are actually doing is shiftingthe fuselage forward, relative to the wing. Since all the weight of thefuselage (including the engine and pilot) shifts forward, the effect is powerful.Extending the motor mount will have an effect on the CG, but nowhere nearthe effect that slanting the cabanes will have.Bill C.Dave wrote:> Bill, that of which you speak are the very things that confuse me just a little-You would think that if the Continental engine mount was designed for the173.375" fuselage, and then you decided to use it on the shorter, 163" fuselage,that the mount would have to shortened, not extended, in order to keep theaircraft inside the proper CG envelope.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Dave,What you nee to take into account is "where are the differences between the longand short fuselages located?" If you study the plans, you will see that certainbays are longer, and others remain unchanged. Some of the additional lengthis located ahead of the CG, and some is located behind. Ultimately, the goalis to ensure that the CG within the acceptable range, relative to the wingleading edge. By shifting the wing back, what you are actually doing is shiftingthe fuselage forward, relative to the wing. Since all the weight of thefuselage (including the engine and pilot) shifts forward, the effect is powerful.Extending the motor mount will have an effect on the CG, but nowhere nearthe effect that slanting the cabanes will have.Bill C.Dave wrote:> Bill, that of which you speak are the very things that confuse me just a little-You would think that if the Continental engine mount was designed for the173.375" fuselage, and then you decided to use it on the shorter, 163" fuselage,that the mount would have to shortened, not extended, in order to keep theaircraft inside the proper CG envelope.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Original Posted By: "Catdesigns"
Chris,Great reply. Very well thought out and researched.One question, though. When reading your post, it appears that certain charactersdon't show up correctly. I took a screen grab to show the areas in question(underlined in red.) So, what did you type in those spaces that show up asboxes? Enquiring minds want to know.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/symb ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Chris,Great reply. Very well thought out and researched.One question, though. When reading your post, it appears that certain charactersdon't show up correctly. I took a screen grab to show the areas in question(underlined in red.) So, what did you type in those spaces that show up asboxes? Enquiring minds want to know.Bill C.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/symb ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Original Posted By: "Catdesigns"
BillIt's not that exciting....... here it comes...... it's........ 1/2--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
BillIt's not that exciting....... here it comes...... it's........ 1/2--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Axle Placement
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "Dave'sPiet"
Bill I went back and fixed the blank spots and typos in the web version. I guess I shouldnot be posting long emails at 1 am. to be more specific, the first two are 1/4 and the second two are 1/2.--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Bill I went back and fixed the blank spots and typos in the web version. I guess I shouldnot be posting long emails at 1 am. to be more specific, the first two are 1/4 and the second two are 1/2.--------ChrisSacramento, CAWestCoastPiet.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "echobravo4"
Oscar- Thank you for the offer. If I'm ever up your way I will get in touch. TheWest Coast flying is already on my calendar!Bill- All of this makes me want to marry up the best of both of these fuselages....I have seen Corvair and Continental engines mounted on the 163" fuselage and alsoon the longest fuselage, and occasionally a very long engine mount used onthe both fuselages in order to make it work... At this juncture, I am actually considering building a fuselage with the longerforward bays, but without adding the the longer bays behind the pilot seat. Thiswould effectively extend the engine out while decreasing the arm/moment ofthe tail section, resulting in a CG that would not require the wings to be movedso far aft at the end of my build (in comparison to building a plans builtlongest fuselage).Extending an engine mount makes little sense to me- you have an aircraft wherepilot and passenger are starved for space, yet a huge empty space is created forwardof the firewall to get the engine far enough out front to bring the aircraftinside the CG envelope. Why not simply extend the firewall forward severalinches, creating a larger cockpit(s), and then use a shorter engine mount?The longest fuselage doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, because you aremoving the pilot aft while moving the moment of the tail section aft, necessitatingmoving the wings even further aft. I'm not an airplane designer, but with the combinations that I have seen with fuselages,engines and engine mounts, at first and second glance it would seemto make more sense to simply extend the fuselage forward of the Datum if you aregoing to utilize the Continental/Corvair engine, while minimizing the amountof weight/moment you will build aft of the Datum.Of course, then I become concerned about aircraft stability, but when I see thethings that builders have done- aircraft out there flying around with cabanestruts extended 3-5", and engine mounts extended 9" beyond plans, wings beingmoved aft to get the CG within range, then I begin to think that a marriage ofthe longest fuselage with the 163" fuselage isn't very far fetched at all....and since I have to work out my own gear placement no matter what fuselage Ibuild, there is no additional work created there.I also do not see stress/loading issues with my idea either, because the aircraftwould be lighter overall, in comparison to the plans-built longest fuselage.I think the resultant fuselage would end up being only about ~6 inches shorterthan the longest fuselage, but the overall length from prop to tail would be considerablyshorter, since the engine mount would be shorter. I think that theshift forward of the moment of the tail section would be significant in regardsto moving the CG further forward with a 210 lb pilot in the rear cockpit.Fire away!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Oscar- Thank you for the offer. If I'm ever up your way I will get in touch. TheWest Coast flying is already on my calendar!Bill- All of this makes me want to marry up the best of both of these fuselages....I have seen Corvair and Continental engines mounted on the 163" fuselage and alsoon the longest fuselage, and occasionally a very long engine mount used onthe both fuselages in order to make it work... At this juncture, I am actually considering building a fuselage with the longerforward bays, but without adding the the longer bays behind the pilot seat. Thiswould effectively extend the engine out while decreasing the arm/moment ofthe tail section, resulting in a CG that would not require the wings to be movedso far aft at the end of my build (in comparison to building a plans builtlongest fuselage).Extending an engine mount makes little sense to me- you have an aircraft wherepilot and passenger are starved for space, yet a huge empty space is created forwardof the firewall to get the engine far enough out front to bring the aircraftinside the CG envelope. Why not simply extend the firewall forward severalinches, creating a larger cockpit(s), and then use a shorter engine mount?The longest fuselage doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, because you aremoving the pilot aft while moving the moment of the tail section aft, necessitatingmoving the wings even further aft. I'm not an airplane designer, but with the combinations that I have seen with fuselages,engines and engine mounts, at first and second glance it would seemto make more sense to simply extend the fuselage forward of the Datum if you aregoing to utilize the Continental/Corvair engine, while minimizing the amountof weight/moment you will build aft of the Datum.Of course, then I become concerned about aircraft stability, but when I see thethings that builders have done- aircraft out there flying around with cabanestruts extended 3-5", and engine mounts extended 9" beyond plans, wings beingmoved aft to get the CG within range, then I begin to think that a marriage ofthe longest fuselage with the 163" fuselage isn't very far fetched at all....and since I have to work out my own gear placement no matter what fuselage Ibuild, there is no additional work created there.I also do not see stress/loading issues with my idea either, because the aircraftwould be lighter overall, in comparison to the plans-built longest fuselage.I think the resultant fuselage would end up being only about ~6 inches shorterthan the longest fuselage, but the overall length from prop to tail would be considerablyshorter, since the engine mount would be shorter. I think that theshift forward of the moment of the tail section would be significant in regardsto moving the CG further forward with a 210 lb pilot in the rear cockpit.Fire away!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "Dave'sPiet"
Dave- The plane, per the plans, is designed to have the wing move fore and aft to accountfor where the CG needs to be (regardless of fuselage length).The final angled cabane struts would be made after the the wing position is finalized.The thing to do would be to get ahold of the weight and balance articles from theBrodhead Pietenpol Association and run the calculations based on your enginechoice and your weight. That will tell you right where your wing, as well asyour landing gear, will need to be, without any guesswork, before you even evenstart building.The articles cover continental engines and just about every fuselage length andI think pilot weights up to 195 lbs.The charts and the calculations should put you an the right track without havingto redesign the aircraft.Earl--------Earl BrownI may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where Iintended to be.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Dave- The plane, per the plans, is designed to have the wing move fore and aft to accountfor where the CG needs to be (regardless of fuselage length).The final angled cabane struts would be made after the the wing position is finalized.The thing to do would be to get ahold of the weight and balance articles from theBrodhead Pietenpol Association and run the calculations based on your enginechoice and your weight. That will tell you right where your wing, as well asyour landing gear, will need to be, without any guesswork, before you even evenstart building.The articles cover continental engines and just about every fuselage length andI think pilot weights up to 195 lbs.The charts and the calculations should put you an the right track without havingto redesign the aircraft.Earl--------Earl BrownI may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where Iintended to be.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "Dave'sPiet"
I appreciate that Earl. I'll contact them.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
I appreciate that Earl. I'll contact them.DaveRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "taildrags"
Well, I just finished reading the W&B article by Doc Mosher and William Wynne...it is a treasure trove, and addressed my concerns about how to build it witha planned CG. No Piet plans should be sold without it. [Shocked] It also makes me realize how important it is to become part of the Piet communityprior to beginning a build (unless you don't mind building things twice).I am becoming a Broadhead member tomorrow.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Well, I just finished reading the W&B article by Doc Mosher and William Wynne...it is a treasure trove, and addressed my concerns about how to build it witha planned CG. No Piet plans should be sold without it. [Shocked] It also makes me realize how important it is to become part of the Piet communityprior to beginning a build (unless you don't mind building things twice).I am becoming a Broadhead member tomorrow.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "johnnysdrop"
Dave; I hope that you're referring to the complete series of articles on W&B thanincludes the data tabulated for an assortment of Air Campers with differentfuselage lengths, landing gear styles, powerplants, fuel tank locations, andof course accessories. It's good that you're doing homework up front insteadof jumping right into the build and then later wishing you'd paid a little moreattention to why people talk about tail heaviness, cabane angle adjustment,and all that stuff. You'll be glad you took the time to study it.And don't take this the wrong way, but your first lesson in BPA membership is thatyou have to learn how to spell 'Brodhead'. It's a city in Wisconsin, nota type of hunting arrow point ;o) Don't mind me though... I am an associate editorand manuscript proofreader for a technical publication and my stock in tradeis checking spelling and punctuation ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Dave; I hope that you're referring to the complete series of articles on W&B thanincludes the data tabulated for an assortment of Air Campers with differentfuselage lengths, landing gear styles, powerplants, fuel tank locations, andof course accessories. It's good that you're doing homework up front insteadof jumping right into the build and then later wishing you'd paid a little moreattention to why people talk about tail heaviness, cabane angle adjustment,and all that stuff. You'll be glad you took the time to study it.And don't take this the wrong way, but your first lesson in BPA membership is thatyou have to learn how to spell 'Brodhead'. It's a city in Wisconsin, nota type of hunting arrow point ;o) Don't mind me though... I am an associate editorand manuscript proofreader for a technical publication and my stock in tradeis checking spelling and punctuation ;o)--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 powerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: Joe Czaplicki
I will post it to the list later today when I get to my hotel.Sent from my iPhone> On Feb 26, 2016, at 5:17 AM, johnnysdrop wrote:> > > Is the Brodhead / WW W&B calculator available online?> English Johnny> STILL building wings> > --------> The only way is UP> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 205#453205> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 18:21:37 +0000 (UTC)
I will post it to the list later today when I get to my hotel.Sent from my iPhone> On Feb 26, 2016, at 5:17 AM, johnnysdrop wrote:> > > Is the Brodhead / WW W&B calculator available online?> English Johnny> STILL building wings> > --------> The only way is UP> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 205#453205> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 18:21:37 +0000 (UTC)
Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselage
Original Posted By: "johnnysdrop"
The promised w&b articles.Best,-john-> On Feb 26, 2016, at 7:52 AM, John Hofmann wrote:> > > I will post it to the list later today when I get to my hotel.> > Sent from my iPhone> >> On Feb 26, 2016, at 5:17 AM, johnnysdrop wrote:>> >> >> Is the Brodhead / WW W&B calculator available online?>> English Johnny>> STILL building wings>> >> -------->> The only way is UP>> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here:>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 205#453205>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
The promised w&b articles.Best,-john-> On Feb 26, 2016, at 7:52 AM, John Hofmann wrote:> > > I will post it to the list later today when I get to my hotel.> > Sent from my iPhone> >> On Feb 26, 2016, at 5:17 AM, johnnysdrop wrote:>> >> >> Is the Brodhead / WW W&B calculator available online?>> English Johnny>> STILL building wings>> >> -------->> The only way is UP>> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here:>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 205#453205>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Starting my build, but need to know which fuselageto build!
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Thanks John, I appreciate the help.Many thanks,English Johnny--------The only way is UPRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Thanks John, I appreciate the help.Many thanks,English Johnny--------The only way is UPRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: weight & balance yet again
Original Posted By: "Dave'sPiet"
John,Thanks so much for sending the PDF of these articles. I just managed to find allof them but one in my back issues. So your sending them was extremely helpful.Am I paid up for the news letter, or what do I owe? I'm happy to receive the letterelectronically, but I still want to be current for the charges. I don'twant to miss any issues.Thanks,Ray Krause843 Jay StreetColusa, CA 95932Sent from my iPad> On Feb 29, 2016, at 5:12 PM, John Hofmann wrote:> > The promised w&b articles.> > Best,> -john-> > >> On Feb 26, 2016, at 7:52 AM, John Hofmann wrote:>> >> >> I will post it to the list later today when I get to my hotel.>> >> Sent from my iPhone>> >>> On Feb 26, 2016, at 5:17 AM, johnnysdrop wrote:>>> >>> >>> Is the Brodhead / WW W&B calculator available online?>>> English Johnny>>> STILL building wings>>> >>> -------->>> The only way is UP>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here:>>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 205#453205> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight & balance yet again
John,Thanks so much for sending the PDF of these articles. I just managed to find allof them but one in my back issues. So your sending them was extremely helpful.Am I paid up for the news letter, or what do I owe? I'm happy to receive the letterelectronically, but I still want to be current for the charges. I don'twant to miss any issues.Thanks,Ray Krause843 Jay StreetColusa, CA 95932Sent from my iPad> On Feb 29, 2016, at 5:12 PM, John Hofmann wrote:> > The promised w&b articles.> > Best,> -john-> > >> On Feb 26, 2016, at 7:52 AM, John Hofmann wrote:>> >> >> I will post it to the list later today when I get to my hotel.>> >> Sent from my iPhone>> >>> On Feb 26, 2016, at 5:17 AM, johnnysdrop wrote:>>> >>> >>> Is the Brodhead / WW W&B calculator available online?>>> English Johnny>>> STILL building wings>>> >>> -------->>> The only way is UP>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here:>>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... 205#453205> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight & balance yet again