Pietenpol-List: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

An archive of the Matronics Pietenpol Listserve.
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Pietenpol-List: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
Cliff,Thanks for the suggestion. I'm looking into the spinner idea as I have a good friendwho loves to make such things! I did some weighing today that should giveme a good idea on what weight spinners might work. I will keep you updated.Thanks,RaySent from my iPad> On Dec 11, 2016, at 7:43 PM, Clif Dawson wrote:> > Just make one of those round "bullet" spinners from heavy metal> and bolt it to your prop hub.> > Clif> I will beg you for advice, your reply will be concise, and I will listen verynicely> and then go out and do exactly what I want. :-)> > > > > So adding weight to the firewall may not do much good. Adding weight to thefront of the engine (the prop) would really help. This is an interesting problem!Maybe I'm not doing this correctly?> > Ray> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
Some of you may know that we have a forum for the builders and flyers of the Pietenpolaircraft and Corvair engine combination. It is called the Pietvair Forum.Recently one of our members, Bill Reynolds, posted a lengthy discussion aboutan accident that we have all heard about, the crash and subsequent death offamed aviator, Ron Alexander. Bill knew Ron quite well, and so this discussionis not an abstract discussion about some guy, but rather it is the reportingof the circumstances surrounding the death of a good friend. Bill felt thatit was important to warn our members about the potential for a deadly choice inbuilding their airplanes. I asked Bill if he would mind if I shared it withthis group, and he graciously allowed me to do so. It is safety-related, and itis important, so I thought that it should be shared with this group as well.Take from it what you will. But I hope that it causes all of us to think throughsome of our choices. It cant happen to me is an unacceptable premise in constructionchoices.Bills post is below-It is with great sadness that I must report the error of using hard lines inappropriatelyto plumb fuel systems. On 17 November of this year, we lost a greataviator and friend, Ron Alexander. Ron was a veteran of the Vietnam war duringwhich he flew C130s and was a recipient of the distinguished flying cross. Ronalso flew for Eastern and Delta Airlines from which he retired. Ron was flyinga recently restored 1918 Curtiss Jenny which belonged to the Candler Fieldmuseum which He founded.The cause of the accident was an incorrectly repaired wood propeller which failedshortly after takeoff. I suppose this post could be about propellers but thatis not what killed him. What killed him was twofold. The first of which wasthe decision to restore the Jenny to original specifications. The second wasthe hard plumbed fuel system that was installed in keeping with the first decision.The preliminary investigation revealed that the violent vibrations resultingfrom the failed prop broke the hard fuel line spraying raw fuel all overthe engine. Unfortunately, the majority of the airframe was engulfed in flameswithin seconds. The Jenny came to rest within feet of a suitable landing place.Neither Ron nor his passenger escaped. Other than the engine and empennagethere was nothing left of the wreckage. The accident happened at my home airport,so I had the opportunity to fly over the accident. From what I could tell,I believe that absent the fire, Ron would be alive today. William Wynne has beenpreaching against the incorrect use of hardline plumbing since his accidentand subsequent injuries and now this lesson has been driven even deeper intomy mind by the death of my friend. Rons passenger that day was Larry Enlow, Mr.Enlow was an FAA antique airplane examiner from Florida. I did not know Mr.Enlow, but I understand that he was a well known and respected aviator in hiscommunity.The propeller in question was a large diameter wood propeller with copper leadingedge attached to a Hispano-Suiza on the nose of a 1918 Curtiss Jenny. An inspectionof the propeller months before the accident revealed a crack in the copperon the leading edge. The propeller was returned to the manufacturer (notSensenich) for repair. The repair consisted of rivets on either side of the crack.On climb out the propeller separated sending a nearly 3 foot piece of theprop into a residential area of the air park. Post accident inspection revealedthat the crack had migrated into the wood from the copper or perhaps the otherway around, we may never know. I was told that the investigator did notethat the crack in the wood was not recent as the wood inside the crack was discolored.I do not know enough about this kind of stuff to comment, but I wonderif it is possible that the engine/propeller combination could produce a harmonicresonance strong enough to cause such a failure? People that knew airplanesincluding one A&P that rode in the accident aircraft said that it did vibrateconsiderably.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "womenfly2"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very ImportantTerry, Thanks for posting that, Hard though it is to read. When I readWilliam Wynne's posting pleading that we replace the hard lines runningfrom the wing tank down, and describing his incident, I went to a localplace that made braided flexible lines for race cars. It was not as cheapas I would have hoped but it is the smart thing to do.Now, Having read this, I am going to evaluate the couple of places where Ihave hard line in the system. If needed, I will replace the lines.It is a hard thing to have to learn through flying accidents!Blue Skies,Steve D________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
Chapter 14, Aircraft Fuel System There is nothing incorrectly done with the Jenny's fuel system if installed asoriginal. Any wood propeller with metal rivet sheathing should be inspected regularlyand at pre-flight for cracks, discoloration, lose rivets, etc. and anyrepairs to be done by a qualified repair shop. KAP--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "womenfly2"
Keri Ann,I guess that you misunderstood my reason for the post. Did Ron Alexander do anythingillegal or not in accordance with any FARs? Of course not. But Bill Reynoldsand I do think that the desire to "keep it original" was a contributing factor.Would you not agree that just because my state allows an owner of a car built beforeseat belts were standard equipment to not have the install them, and riskcan be better managed by installing them. I didn't use the word safe. I usedthe term "manage risk". And that is why Bill Reynolds wrote what he did, andI reposted.The chances of an experimental aircraft act having an off field landing at somepoint are fairly good, no matter how well the airplane is built. Ask WilliamWynne if he wished he had had braided fuel lines instead of hard lines in hisaccident, and ask Kevin Purtee if he regretted spending the money on braided fuellines that prevented fuel from escaping in his accident. I think you knowboth answers.As a good friend likes to say, "Life is full of choices." We can all choose whichtypes of fuel lines to use. Bill and I just want to point out the potentialresults of certain choices. You may see it otherwise and that is your right.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GARead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
I fully understood your reason for posting. What I read in the post was the fuelline [system] being the major factor in the fatalities, when the issue was thepropeller. The fuel line was a contributing factor after the fact.I just wanted to point out that the Jenny is a safe aircraft and so is its fuelsystem for the time it was built. Could it have been better, sure, improved inthe rebuilt, sure, but it was to be rebuilt as original ... a choice.Every Piet builder picks and choose the amount of risk they are comfortable within building their plane, conscious or unconscious of the effect.So its a good recommendation to look at your fuel system setup, but also to lookat all the items one uses in their build from the wood, glue, to and includingthe finish. One change could be the difference between you walking away ornot. Now your proficiency as a pilot, another subject.Thanks for post it, makes one think.Keri-Ann--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "taildrags"
IMPORTANT! If you are a user of the app version of Airport Courtesy Cars, pleaseview it for an important message about the possible closure of the app, or viewthe page here: https://www.airportcourtesycars.com/app ... -----Glenn BraschRV-9A FlyingMedevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret)Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone Appand www.airportcourtesycars.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: Steven Dortch
There have been some outstanding, beautiful Air Campers built and featured overthe years where the builder has elected to use period (1920-30s) tools and materialsto build the airplane. Resorcinol glue, hard wire tail braces with wound-wireferrules, babbitt bearings, brazed tubing connections, wrapped and solderedaircraft cable ends, doped cotton fabric, old steam gauges. Where do wedraw the line, knowing that there are more modern, better, more reliable, andcertainly more easily obtainable materials and methods available to us? Well,as Keri Ann points out, it's the builder's choice.--------Oscar ZunigaMedford, ORAir Camper NX41CC "Scout"A75 power, 72x36 Culver propRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "TriScout"
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is VeryImportantIT IS the builder's choice. But I would recommend making some updates forsafety. IE shoulder harnesses, Flexible fuel lines, Pad Sharp edges in thecockpit, ETC. Even those who judge antique aircraft usually don't ding thebuilder for adding safety.Y'all Be safe out there!Steve D.________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "tkreiner"
How about airbags? Back when I first bought/assembled my GN-1, I talked to a mechanicabout getting it annualed and signed off. He said that he can do that andalso have airbags (just like cars have) installed in my plane. Then he askedif I have the maintenance manual for the plane. That's when I made like a treeand got out of there. He was accustomed to working on late model Beech products.The first red flag was that his shop was too clean and shiny.Larry--------KLNCA65-8N2308CSlick 4330'sAN HardwareAirframe 778TTW72CK-42 SensenichStandard Factory GN-1Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: John Cox
It will be interesting to see whether the final NTSB report will mention anythingabout the engine mounts, and or subsequent damage to the firewall-forward portionof the aircraft. We already know the engine is (or was) an Hispano-SuizaE-2, which weighed roughly 450 lbs, excluding the the radiator, and perhapsadditional accessories.The propeller was a St. Croix, vintage unknown, however, as stated, was made oflaminated oak. Since pictures of the exact prop are difficult to find, onlyan estimate can be made as to exact configuration of the prop, whether it hadstraight blades, or scimitars. With an 8'3" length, losing roughly 3 feet ofblade was catastrophic. Three feet of 6" wide Oak by 1" thick - representativeof the section that separated (give or take), would have weighed roughly 7 lbs.During takeoff, the engine would have been turning the full rated 1800 rpm (30rps), and due to the instantaneous imbalance when the prop separated, the vibratoryforces would have ripped apart all firewall forward components, includingengine mounts, and ALL connections to the engine.Would flexible tubing have held under those circumstances? With the degree of imbalance, I doubt any form of light weight tubing, whethersolid or flexible, would have held for longer than a few seconds. At 30 rps,shutting down the engine in time to prevent any damage at all would have beenimprobable...--------Tom KreinerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
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Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important

Post by matronics »

Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
I am happy to report that thanks to donations, the site continues. View the donors or add your name by clicking here: https://www.airportcourtesycars.com/tha ... nors-.html Thanks, Glenn--------Glenn BraschRV-9A FlyingMedevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret)Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone Appand www.airportcourtesycars.comRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Please Read - This Is Safety Related And Is Very Important
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