Original Posted By: "Lorenzo"
If you include my information, I will be like Steve Martin in "The Jerk" "Thephone book is here! The phone book is Here!" Building a pietenpol, fuselage nearly complete a few wing ribs built. Planingon using a Jeep 134 flathead engine. Live in Swifton Arkansas(Home town ofGeorge Kell , hall of fame 3rd baseman for the Detroit tigers) email aviken(at)windstream.net.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "Jack Phillips"
I'm just about to finish up building all my wing ribs. I've accomplished the FAAgoal of learning a lot while doing this. Here are a few observations for thosewho have not yet reached this milepost:I steamed, rather than soaked, my capstrips for bending. While many have used thesoaking technique with success, my woodworking background makes me uncomfortablesoaking already dry wood. The heat, not the moisture is what allows theeasy bending of the strip. I already had a steam box (3/4 ply, 8x8x36) from anotherold project. You could easily make your own & hook up the steam from a kettleand hotplate. One end of the box was closed, and the other sealed with atowel while the strips were steaming for about 30 min.Somewhere in the 'instructions' I recall reading of the 'buggy whip' test. I haveused this test with good results. Grab one end of a long, properly dimensionedcapstrip and whip it violently once or twice. I found that about 1/3 of thestrips would snap off in my hand. I cut these shattered pieces up later foruse as the shorter cross bracing. The stout pieces that passed the test werethe ones I used for the long, outer capstrips of my ribs.I used the 2-inch hole saw technique for cutting all the gussets. A cheap set ofhardware store metal hand shears is all that is needed for cutting them allto final size and shape.The handiest tool I bought for the Piet project has been a Harbor Freight 12-inchbenchtop disc sander. The heavy cast-iron plate and med-grit paper makes shortwork of getting a precise final fit to all those capstrip cross braces (fuselagepieces, too).I cut the bending/drying jig to the same profile as the finished rib upper surface.When removing the steamed capstrips from the jig after drying overnight,there was a small bit of springback that did not worry me. I found a few caseswhere the dried capstrip had broken at the severest part of the curve duringdrying. In some other cases, the strip broke when bending it into my assemblyjig, in spite of the steaming and pre-bending. Not to worry. These became moreshort cross-bracing.In one case, after steaming, drying, and assembly of the rib, I found the capstripsplit at the severest curve the next morning after the T-88 had cured. I dida T-88 repair on this part since it will be under that 9-inch gusset the lengthof the leading edge.Maybe others will chime in this threadwith good techniques of their own.LorenzoRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf ... __________
I'm just about to finish up building all my wing ribs. I've accomplished the FAAgoal of learning a lot while doing this. Here are a few observations for thosewho have not yet reached this milepost:I steamed, rather than soaked, my capstrips for bending. While many have used thesoaking technique with success, my woodworking background makes me uncomfortablesoaking already dry wood. The heat, not the moisture is what allows theeasy bending of the strip. I already had a steam box (3/4 ply, 8x8x36) from anotherold project. You could easily make your own & hook up the steam from a kettleand hotplate. One end of the box was closed, and the other sealed with atowel while the strips were steaming for about 30 min.Somewhere in the 'instructions' I recall reading of the 'buggy whip' test. I haveused this test with good results. Grab one end of a long, properly dimensionedcapstrip and whip it violently once or twice. I found that about 1/3 of thestrips would snap off in my hand. I cut these shattered pieces up later foruse as the shorter cross bracing. The stout pieces that passed the test werethe ones I used for the long, outer capstrips of my ribs.I used the 2-inch hole saw technique for cutting all the gussets. A cheap set ofhardware store metal hand shears is all that is needed for cutting them allto final size and shape.The handiest tool I bought for the Piet project has been a Harbor Freight 12-inchbenchtop disc sander. The heavy cast-iron plate and med-grit paper makes shortwork of getting a precise final fit to all those capstrip cross braces (fuselagepieces, too).I cut the bending/drying jig to the same profile as the finished rib upper surface.When removing the steamed capstrips from the jig after drying overnight,there was a small bit of springback that did not worry me. I found a few caseswhere the dried capstrip had broken at the severest part of the curve duringdrying. In some other cases, the strip broke when bending it into my assemblyjig, in spite of the steaming and pre-bending. Not to worry. These became moreshort cross-bracing.In one case, after steaming, drying, and assembly of the rib, I found the capstripsplit at the severest curve the next morning after the T-88 had cured. I dida T-88 repair on this part since it will be under that 9-inch gusset the lengthof the leading edge.Maybe others will chime in this threadwith good techniques of their own.LorenzoRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Nice write-up, Lorenzo. You might find yourself in demand at Brodhead toteach a rib-building class.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
Nice write-up, Lorenzo. You might find yourself in demand at Brodhead toteach a rib-building class.Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia-----Original Message-----
RE: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By:> jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
Oops.
LH
Oops.
LHRE: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By:> jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
I'm trying to keep pace with Kenny Crider to get my Piet finished and flying by next summer. I think it is still a reasonable goal. But I don't know if I will have the hours flown off by the time Brodhead rolls around. Coolbaugh was a wizard this year. I certainly want to attend=2C and I don't mind participating in any way which would be helpful=2C but I would hate to show up for my first appearance and present myself as the expert on anything Piet related.LH
I'm trying to keep pace with Kenny Crider to get my Piet finished and flying by next summer. I think it is still a reasonable goal. But I don't know if I will have the hours flown off by the time Brodhead rolls around. Coolbaugh was a wizard this year. I certainly want to attend=2C and I don't mind participating in any way which would be helpful=2C but I would hate to show up for my first appearance and present myself as the expert on anything Piet related.LH
RE: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
It typically takes between 1800 and 2500 hours of work to build a Pietenpol.When I built mine, I kept a detailed log and put a total of 2,465 hours intothe build. I was working at a full time job and found that I couldrealistically put in about 10 hours a week on the Pietenpol - a couple hoursa night Monday through Thursday, and then another couple hours sometimeduring the weekend. At such a pace, it takes between 3 and 7 years (it tookme 8 years, but for a 2 year stretch while I was designing and building myhouse, I did no work at all on the airplane) to build one. If you can workfull time on the airplane (40+ hours a week), building it in a year or so isa possibility.Don't be in a big hurry to finish it. The building process is highlyenjoyable. As the saying goes, take time to "Stop and smell the Sawdust".Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____
It typically takes between 1800 and 2500 hours of work to build a Pietenpol.When I built mine, I kept a detailed log and put a total of 2,465 hours intothe build. I was working at a full time job and found that I couldrealistically put in about 10 hours a week on the Pietenpol - a couple hoursa night Monday through Thursday, and then another couple hours sometimeduring the weekend. At such a pace, it takes between 3 and 7 years (it tookme 8 years, but for a 2 year stretch while I was designing and building myhouse, I did no work at all on the airplane) to build one. If you can workfull time on the airplane (40+ hours a week), building it in a year or so isa possibility.Don't be in a big hurry to finish it. The building process is highlyenjoyable. As the saying goes, take time to "Stop and smell the Sawdust".Jack PhillipsNX899JPSmith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____
RE: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
You are correct about the building being enjoyable. I do very much enjoy it. If I wanted something to fly right now=2C it would be best (and probably cheaper) to just buy something - maybe a flying Piet=2C an Aeronca=2C or Cub. But I am already anxious to see this project fly. When I'm done I will probably start on another plane - perhaps an RV to actually go somewhere. In the meantime=2C the Piet is a pleasure=2C and I'm sure it will be a pleasure to fly. My local airport has never seen anything like it.I'm targeting about 1000 hours of total build time. Actual shop time. I don't count all those hours reading Uncle Tony's books & widow shopping through the Aircraft Spruce catalog. I try to do something every day. Weekends are where I can really get involved. Since starting in Feb of this year=2C I've got the tail pieces and fuselage done. I should have the wings done in another month. Another month to get all the fittings=2C landing gear=2C and assembly done. Engine installation and fabric over the winter. Flying by early summer next year. Maybe optimistic=2C but we'll see.Lorenzo
You are correct about the building being enjoyable. I do very much enjoy it. If I wanted something to fly right now=2C it would be best (and probably cheaper) to just buy something - maybe a flying Piet=2C an Aeronca=2C or Cub. But I am already anxious to see this project fly. When I'm done I will probably start on another plane - perhaps an RV to actually go somewhere. In the meantime=2C the Piet is a pleasure=2C and I'm sure it will be a pleasure to fly. My local airport has never seen anything like it.I'm targeting about 1000 hours of total build time. Actual shop time. I don't count all those hours reading Uncle Tony's books & widow shopping through the Aircraft Spruce catalog. I try to do something every day. Weekends are where I can really get involved. Since starting in Feb of this year=2C I've got the tail pieces and fuselage done. I should have the wings done in another month. Another month to get all the fittings=2C landing gear=2C and assembly done. Engine installation and fabric over the winter. Flying by early summer next year. Maybe optimistic=2C but we'll see.Lorenzo
Original Posted By:=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0A larharris2 Harris <larharris2@m
Lorenzo,=0A=0A=0AYou certainly would be more than welcome, and very much appreciated as a presenter at a Brodhead forum in this regard. You have legitimately conceived, proven, and finished a full phase of the build. Everyone, I am sure, would be grateful and appreciative. =0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0APuryear, TN=0A=0A
Lorenzo,=0A=0A=0AYou certainly would be more than welcome, and very much appreciated as a presenter at a Brodhead forum in this regard. You have legitimately conceived, proven, and finished a full phase of the build. Everyone, I am sure, would be grateful and appreciative. =0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0APuryear, TN=0A=0A
Original Posted By:> jack(at)bedfordlandings.com
Very nice Lorenzo! I agree on the sander, the best tool purchased for my project...Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Aug 13, 2014, at 6:30 PM, larharris2 Harris wrote:> > You are correct about the building being enjoyable. I do very much enjoy it. If I wanted something to fly right now, it would be best (and probably cheaper) to just buy something - maybe a flying Piet, an Aeronca, or Cub. But I am already anxious to see this project fly. When I'm done I will probably start on another plane - perhaps an RV to actually go somewhere. In the meantime, the Piet is a pleasure, and I'm sure it will be a pleasure to fly. My local airport has never seen anything like it.> > I'm targeting about 1000 hours of total build time. Actual shop time. I don't count all those hours reading Uncle Tony's books & widow shopping through the Aircraft Spruce catalog. I try to do something every day. Weekends are where I can really get involved. Since starting in Feb of this year, I've got the tail pieces and fuselage done. I should have the wings done in another month. Another month to get all the fittings, landing gear, and assembly done. Engine installation and fabric over the winter. Flying by early summer next year. Maybe optimistic, but we'll see.> > Lorenzo> > >
Very nice Lorenzo! I agree on the sander, the best tool purchased for my project...Sent from my iPadJack Textor> On Aug 13, 2014, at 6:30 PM, larharris2 Harris wrote:> > You are correct about the building being enjoyable. I do very much enjoy it. If I wanted something to fly right now, it would be best (and probably cheaper) to just buy something - maybe a flying Piet, an Aeronca, or Cub. But I am already anxious to see this project fly. When I'm done I will probably start on another plane - perhaps an RV to actually go somewhere. In the meantime, the Piet is a pleasure, and I'm sure it will be a pleasure to fly. My local airport has never seen anything like it.> > I'm targeting about 1000 hours of total build time. Actual shop time. I don't count all those hours reading Uncle Tony's books & widow shopping through the Aircraft Spruce catalog. I try to do something every day. Weekends are where I can really get involved. Since starting in Feb of this year, I've got the tail pieces and fuselage done. I should have the wings done in another month. Another month to get all the fittings, landing gear, and assembly done. Engine installation and fabric over the winter. Flying by early summer next year. Maybe optimistic, but we'll see.> > Lorenzo> > >
Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits
Original Posted By: "biplan53"
I need a little advice here.. In choosing a possible carb for my Jeep enginepowered piet, I tried a universal four cyl carb made years ago for tractorsfork lifts ect. It was brand new in the box, but it was very heavy and bulky.Then I did a little research and it seemed some ford powered piets use theTillotson X Carb. So I bought one of them. It is small and light but whatconcerns me is the small flimsy throttle arm. It seems like a very weak linkto risk your life on a piece of pot metal not much thicker than a kitchen matchwith a little ball end to attatch your cable to. What other options shouldI look at?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits
I need a little advice here.. In choosing a possible carb for my Jeep enginepowered piet, I tried a universal four cyl carb made years ago for tractorsfork lifts ect. It was brand new in the box, but it was very heavy and bulky.Then I did a little research and it seemed some ford powered piets use theTillotson X Carb. So I bought one of them. It is small and light but whatconcerns me is the small flimsy throttle arm. It seems like a very weak linkto risk your life on a piece of pot metal not much thicker than a kitchen matchwith a little ball end to attatch your cable to. What other options shouldI look at?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits
Original Posted By: Robert Gow
How did you come up with an extra set of ribs? I am building a steel fuselage too. I copied Aerojake and I am putting a door in the front seat. Have not figuredout the hinge yet. Also added about 7inches to the front seat area. I havea wooden fuselage at the shop I am going to build the steel gear and bracketsfor. If my friend puts the engine he wants on it, it will be something neat.He wants to put a Donavan Model D engine in it. The model D is a copy of a modelA that is made to race engine specs. It is made of aluminum with a chevy 350bearings and billet crank, forged rods and pistons. The ports are fashionedon 350 ports. It is expensive but still cheaper than a new plane engine.--------Building steel fuselage aircamper.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:45:15 -0400Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits
How did you come up with an extra set of ribs? I am building a steel fuselage too. I copied Aerojake and I am putting a door in the front seat. Have not figuredout the hinge yet. Also added about 7inches to the front seat area. I havea wooden fuselage at the shop I am going to build the steel gear and bracketsfor. If my friend puts the engine he wants on it, it will be something neat.He wants to put a Donavan Model D engine in it. The model D is a copy of a modelA that is made to race engine specs. It is made of aluminum with a chevy 350bearings and billet crank, forged rods and pistons. The ports are fashionedon 350 ports. It is expensive but still cheaper than a new plane engine.--------Building steel fuselage aircamper.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:45:15 -0400Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
> In one case, after steaming, drying, and assembly of the rib, I found the capstripsplit at the severest curve the next morning after the T-88 had cured. Idid a T-88 repair on this part since it will be under that 9-inch gusset thelength of the leading edge. Do not remember the Piet rib having a "Sever Curve" ... ? All my top cap strips,1/4" x 1/2" stika spruce, were steamed on a jig that over curved the radii toallow for flex back giving them the correct curvatureNever had one brake as you posted in your pictures. It also looks like you havemore of a radius then the Piet rib in the drawings ?I have also tried "Dry Heat" does not work without the moisture from the waterin the steam to help soften the wood fibers making the wood flexable.BTW, I have built Piper J-3 ribs from 1/4" x 1/4" stika spruce without steamingthem, no issue with any braking.Curious issues you are having.WF2--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 04:43:50 -0700
> In one case, after steaming, drying, and assembly of the rib, I found the capstripsplit at the severest curve the next morning after the T-88 had cured. Idid a T-88 repair on this part since it will be under that 9-inch gusset thelength of the leading edge. Do not remember the Piet rib having a "Sever Curve" ... ? All my top cap strips,1/4" x 1/2" stika spruce, were steamed on a jig that over curved the radii toallow for flex back giving them the correct curvatureNever had one brake as you posted in your pictures. It also looks like you havemore of a radius then the Piet rib in the drawings ?I have also tried "Dry Heat" does not work without the moisture from the waterin the steam to help soften the wood fibers making the wood flexable.BTW, I have built Piper J-3 ribs from 1/4" x 1/4" stika spruce without steamingthem, no issue with any braking.Curious issues you are having.WF2--------Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 04:43:50 -0700
Re: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Yahoo! Account Service
Lorenzo,Are you using the Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett? I had some minor, but not nearas severe as your pictures show, cracking issues when steaming my capstrips.The upper capstrip on the Riblett appears to have more of a curve to it. I found that steaming mine, then IMMEDIATELY putting them in the rib jig workedthe best. Any more than about 10 seconds or so and the capstrips didno't seemto want to bend as easily. In that case, I would stick them back in the streamfor a bit. I never did the "fishing pole casting" test, but I did not havinga lot of cracking issues, so I am happy with the outcome.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GAUSMC, USMCR, ATPBVD DVD PDQ BBQRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_ ... ______Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 07:58:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Lorenzo,Are you using the Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett? I had some minor, but not nearas severe as your pictures show, cracking issues when steaming my capstrips.The upper capstrip on the Riblett appears to have more of a curve to it. I found that steaming mine, then IMMEDIATELY putting them in the rib jig workedthe best. Any more than about 10 seconds or so and the capstrips didno't seemto want to bend as easily. In that case, I would stick them back in the streamfor a bit. I never did the "fishing pole casting" test, but I did not havinga lot of cracking issues, so I am happy with the outcome.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GAUSMC, USMCR, ATPBVD DVD PDQ BBQRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_ ... ______Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 07:58:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
> Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By:> Love2Fly.KAP(at)gmail.com
"Severe curve" was just to try to describe the location. There really isn't a severe curve=2C but my issues were where the rib had the 'most' curve=2C on top at the front of the rib.I bought Pietenpol's full size rib drawing. All my layouts are traced directly from this drawing. I did not crosscheck the dimensions with the regular plans drawing.If I had it all to do over again=2C I would do as you describe. I would build my bending jig with a greater curve than the finished rib to allow for a bit of springback.Perhaps I just got a batch of exceptionally brittle spruce ?? Perhaps I should give the strips some more time in the steamer? I reckon it is all part of the learning/building process.Lorenzo> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
"Severe curve" was just to try to describe the location. There really isn't a severe curve=2C but my issues were where the rib had the 'most' curve=2C on top at the front of the rib.I bought Pietenpol's full size rib drawing. All my layouts are traced directly from this drawing. I did not crosscheck the dimensions with the regular plans drawing.If I had it all to do over again=2C I would do as you describe. I would build my bending jig with a greater curve than the finished rib to allow for a bit of springback.Perhaps I just got a batch of exceptionally brittle spruce ?? Perhaps I should give the strips some more time in the steamer? I reckon it is all part of the learning/building process.Lorenzo> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
When you make one of these, you might consider using an exposed head with provisionfor a safety wire...Just my $.02--------Tom KreinerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
When you make one of these, you might consider using an exposed head with provisionfor a safety wire...Just my $.02--------Tom KreinerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Lorenzo,I would let mine steam for at least 45-50 minutes, and usually it was fine. I amguessing that I could have pulled them out well before then, but it certainlydid not hurt anything.I like your rib jig, by the way.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GAUSMC, USMCR, ATPBVD DVD PDQ BBQRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Lorenzo,I would let mine steam for at least 45-50 minutes, and usually it was fine. I amguessing that I could have pulled them out well before then, but it certainlydid not hurt anything.I like your rib jig, by the way.--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GAUSMC, USMCR, ATPBVD DVD PDQ BBQRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "tools"
You're right, the Tillotsen was frequently used in the earlier days on bothFords and corvairs. They're not used much these days on either. I am not personally familiar with the carb, but would definitely find a wayto replace the flimsy arm if it bothers you. believe me, if it bothers younow? It'll REALLY bother you on climbout over trees at 400' with someone'skid in the front seat.I had a lot of luck with a weber on my ford installation. Most guyssuccessfully flying fords these days seem to be using a ford carb. Good luck on this fascinating project!Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
You're right, the Tillotsen was frequently used in the earlier days on bothFords and corvairs. They're not used much these days on either. I am not personally familiar with the carb, but would definitely find a wayto replace the flimsy arm if it bothers you. believe me, if it bothers younow? It'll REALLY bother you on climbout over trees at 400' with someone'skid in the front seat.I had a lot of luck with a weber on my ford installation. Most guyssuccessfully flying fords these days seem to be using a ford carb. Good luck on this fascinating project!Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "AircamperN11MS"
Wood fibers can be crushed, they CANNOT be stretched. So, steaming or boiling helps to loosen up the wood cells. Bending effectivelyis then a matter of making sure you are crushing cells, not trying to stretchthem.When you hold a piece of wood freehand and bend it, in theory, the outer half ofthe wood is in tension, the middle neutral, and the inner half in compression.So to steam bend wood effectively and repeatably, you need to force ALL of thewood into compression. Something as simple as nylon packing tape along the outsideradius, will (help) prevent any stretching there, and will effectively forceall of the wood into compression and it will bend A LOT, EVERY time. Commercialwood bending jigs bend 1" and thicker chair backs like they're nothing.They will capture the piece of wood in a jig. The backbone being some flexiblesteel, end pieces welded or bolted to it. Then, the steel doesn't stretch,the end pieces force the wood into compression.With stuff as small as ours, the packing tape is cheap insurance. Needs to bereally well adhered though, so wrapped over the ends. In the case of some ribs breaking and some not... when it's just free bent, it'sa matter of whether or not the outer fibers are strong enough to create thiscondition themselves. Since they cannot stretch, if they reach their tensilestrength before the wood bends enough, they merely fail.The steaming helps to keep the cells pliable, so when they crush, they don't failcompletely, but rather deform. The trick is to condition them enough so they'llexperience plastic deformation of a sort. It IS the moisture that doesthis. Warm moisture is better. Steaming is more effective than boiling, butI don't think boiling is really any problem at all. Tage Frid has written some really good articles on wood bending, probably availableonline these days.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Wood fibers can be crushed, they CANNOT be stretched. So, steaming or boiling helps to loosen up the wood cells. Bending effectivelyis then a matter of making sure you are crushing cells, not trying to stretchthem.When you hold a piece of wood freehand and bend it, in theory, the outer half ofthe wood is in tension, the middle neutral, and the inner half in compression.So to steam bend wood effectively and repeatably, you need to force ALL of thewood into compression. Something as simple as nylon packing tape along the outsideradius, will (help) prevent any stretching there, and will effectively forceall of the wood into compression and it will bend A LOT, EVERY time. Commercialwood bending jigs bend 1" and thicker chair backs like they're nothing.They will capture the piece of wood in a jig. The backbone being some flexiblesteel, end pieces welded or bolted to it. Then, the steel doesn't stretch,the end pieces force the wood into compression.With stuff as small as ours, the packing tape is cheap insurance. Needs to bereally well adhered though, so wrapped over the ends. In the case of some ribs breaking and some not... when it's just free bent, it'sa matter of whether or not the outer fibers are strong enough to create thiscondition themselves. Since they cannot stretch, if they reach their tensilestrength before the wood bends enough, they merely fail.The steaming helps to keep the cells pliable, so when they crush, they don't failcompletely, but rather deform. The trick is to condition them enough so they'llexperience plastic deformation of a sort. It IS the moisture that doesthis. Warm moisture is better. Steaming is more effective than boiling, butI don't think boiling is really any problem at all. Tage Frid has written some really good articles on wood bending, probably availableonline these days.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Michael Weston
Professor Tools,Good description and easy to understand. You taught me something today.Thank you for that. Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Professor Tools,Good description and easy to understand. You taught me something today.Thank you for that. Cheers,--------Scott LiefeldFlying N11MS since March 1972Steel TubeC-85-12Wire WheelsBrodhead in 1996Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb choice for ford
Original Posted By: Doug
hi kenny,mike w.here, just send me the arm and i'll make you a stronger one outof billet. happy to help. mike weston.________________________________________________________________________________
hi kenny,mike w.here, just send me the arm and i'll make you a stronger one outof billet. happy to help. mike weston.________________________________________________________________________________
RE: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb
Original Posted By: douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net
Anyone ever thought of using an Aerocarb/Aeroinjector? Pretty simple...not prone to icing.Doug Dever=0AIn beautiful Stow Ohio
Anyone ever thought of using an Aerocarb/Aeroinjector? Pretty simple...not prone to icing.Doug Dever=0AIn beautiful Stow Ohio
Re: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb
Original Posted By: Douwe Blumberg
I bacame intimately familiar with a Tillotson X on the way to Brodhead this year when one of the three Pietenpols I was flying with made a deadstick landing in a farm field due to the float valve seat loosening up and starving the engine of fuel.The Tillotson X is lightweight and simple but there is no provision to safety the float valve seat.Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message -----
I bacame intimately familiar with a Tillotson X on the way to Brodhead this year when one of the three Pietenpols I was flying with made a deadstick landing in a farm field due to the float valve seat loosening up and starving the engine of fuel.The Tillotson X is lightweight and simple but there is no provision to safety the float valve seat.Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb choice for ford
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Now that is a very nice gesture. I admired the one in the photo (I assume yousent it) because I really love to see such works of art. I have a dear friendwho makes such things for me and my planes, it is a great talent and very muchappreciated. I have shown him some of my problems as they come along and he justsays, "let me think about that and get back to you". In a few days he hassolved my problem with an "adaptor", or a new way of doing the project. He machinedan aluminum adaptor between my tach and the tach cable that is both ingeniousand beautiful. I wish I had a picture of it to show you, but it is nowhidden behind the panel. It should be displayed in a crystal box!This group is really great!Thanks,Ray KrausePlugging away at the SkyScout and checked out anew in our restored Champ. Havenot flown one in thirty years, what a hoot. My seventeen year old grandson isreally excited because he took it off and landed it all by himself yesterday!Sent from my iPad> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Michael Weston wrote:> > > hi kenny,mike w.here, just send me the arm and i'll make you a stronger one outof billet. happy to help. mike weston.> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Now that is a very nice gesture. I admired the one in the photo (I assume yousent it) because I really love to see such works of art. I have a dear friendwho makes such things for me and my planes, it is a great talent and very muchappreciated. I have shown him some of my problems as they come along and he justsays, "let me think about that and get back to you". In a few days he hassolved my problem with an "adaptor", or a new way of doing the project. He machinedan aluminum adaptor between my tach and the tach cable that is both ingeniousand beautiful. I wish I had a picture of it to show you, but it is nowhidden behind the panel. It should be displayed in a crystal box!This group is really great!Thanks,Ray KrausePlugging away at the SkyScout and checked out anew in our restored Champ. Havenot flown one in thirty years, what a hoot. My seventeen year old grandson isreally excited because he took it off and landed it all by himself yesterday!Sent from my iPad> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Michael Weston wrote:> > > hi kenny,mike w.here, just send me the arm and i'll make you a stronger one outof billet. happy to help. mike weston.> > > > ________________________________________________________________________________
Re: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb
Original Posted By:> douweblumberg(at)earthlink.net
And they have an adaptor for the small Continentals, it costs only $365.00! It does not need carb heat on the cowled Sonex aircraft, but not sure about on a non-pressure cowled Continental. I have not yet found anyone who has used one, but Sonex says it has been done successfully several times. I might do so on my SkyScout, but the engine came with an Stromberg NS-3B that works on the engine and it runs great! If I need an overhaul on the Stromberg, I will probably change to an Aeroinjector, it works great on my Jabiru 3300/Waiex.Ray KrauseBuilding SkyScout with A-65,already overhauled and successfully run.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:14 PM, Doug wrote:> > Anyone ever thought of using an Aerocarb/Aeroinjector? Pretty simple...not prone to icing.> > Doug Dever> In beautiful Stow Ohio> >
And they have an adaptor for the small Continentals, it costs only $365.00! It does not need carb heat on the cowled Sonex aircraft, but not sure about on a non-pressure cowled Continental. I have not yet found anyone who has used one, but Sonex says it has been done successfully several times. I might do so on my SkyScout, but the engine came with an Stromberg NS-3B that works on the engine and it runs great! If I need an overhaul on the Stromberg, I will probably change to an Aeroinjector, it works great on my Jabiru 3300/Waiex.Ray KrauseBuilding SkyScout with A-65,already overhauled and successfully run.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:14 PM, Doug wrote:> > Anyone ever thought of using an Aerocarb/Aeroinjector? Pretty simple...not prone to icing.> > Doug Dever> In beautiful Stow Ohio> >
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
How much do you want for the ribs? You can email me at biplan53(at)hotmail.com. Thanks!!--------Building steel fuselage aircamper.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 03:52:42 -0700
How much do you want for the ribs? You can email me at biplan53(at)hotmail.com. Thanks!!--------Building steel fuselage aircamper.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 03:52:42 -0700
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
I've built some ribs using western cedar* without soaking or steaming. They'vebeen hanging on the wall for years with no ill effects. So, as usual, it alldepends. Probably as much as anything, would be the moisture content of thewood at the time of bending and what environment the wood lives in afterwards.I have a feeling most airplane wood goes from indoor MC to outdoor MC which isn'tgonna stress it as much as outdoor wood going indoors. Also, the grain orientation will matter. Whether the cap strip is quarter, riftor plain sawn. I don't know the technical answer off the top of my head, butI've had the best results with plain sawn wood.*western cedar is both lighter and weaker than spruce, but plenty strong for wingribs. I've found where it's been used in a number of home builts over theyears for weight and cost savings. It behaves quite well.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 05:16:26 -0700
I've built some ribs using western cedar* without soaking or steaming. They'vebeen hanging on the wall for years with no ill effects. So, as usual, it alldepends. Probably as much as anything, would be the moisture content of thewood at the time of bending and what environment the wood lives in afterwards.I have a feeling most airplane wood goes from indoor MC to outdoor MC which isn'tgonna stress it as much as outdoor wood going indoors. Also, the grain orientation will matter. Whether the cap strip is quarter, riftor plain sawn. I don't know the technical answer off the top of my head, butI've had the best results with plain sawn wood.*western cedar is both lighter and weaker than spruce, but plenty strong for wingribs. I've found where it's been used in a number of home builts over theyears for weight and cost savings. It behaves quite well.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 05:16:26 -0700
Re: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
RE: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.net
Mike=2C Tools is correct. Even with all the soaking and steaming=2C you can only get=2C at best=2C a 2-percent stretch from wood. Some wood=2C not all. This means that if you try to stretch it=2C it WILL fail. But the soaking and steaming can make it a bit squishy in compression (Tools' term 'crushed' implies failure. We're not looking for failure=2C just compression.)=2C and it will take a permanent set when the heat/steam/moisture is removed.When you bend a stick=2C the neutral axis is along the center. The outer half is in tension=2C and the inner half is in compression. Make too much tension - failure. Exactly what the photos of my failed capstrips show. The technique Tools presented was to connect another strong=2C rigid material to the outside of the bending wood=2C before it is bent=2C to move the neutral axis all the way to the outside of the bend=2C thus putting all the load on your bent piece of wood into compression. This technique has been used by furniture makers for centuries.LorenzoDate: Fri=2C 15 Aug 2014 05:16:26 -0700
Mike=2C Tools is correct. Even with all the soaking and steaming=2C you can only get=2C at best=2C a 2-percent stretch from wood. Some wood=2C not all. This means that if you try to stretch it=2C it WILL fail. But the soaking and steaming can make it a bit squishy in compression (Tools' term 'crushed' implies failure. We're not looking for failure=2C just compression.)=2C and it will take a permanent set when the heat/steam/moisture is removed.When you bend a stick=2C the neutral axis is along the center. The outer half is in tension=2C and the inner half is in compression. Make too much tension - failure. Exactly what the photos of my failed capstrips show. The technique Tools presented was to connect another strong=2C rigid material to the outside of the bending wood=2C before it is bent=2C to move the neutral axis all the way to the outside of the bend=2C thus putting all the load on your bent piece of wood into compression. This technique has been used by furniture makers for centuries.LorenzoDate: Fri=2C 15 Aug 2014 05:16:26 -0700
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "Douwe Blumberg"
Hey Mike, not the most intuitive thing... let me try to explain.First, does the explanation about when you "free bend", meaning just hang ontoa piece of wood and bend it, that the outside half of the wood is in tension,the middle of the wood is neutral, and the inside is in compression?This is a basic force diagram sort of thing for a beam across a span sort of situation.To give a better verbalized pictorial, assume the beam is being held on the ends,in the middle. As in they taper to a point and are being supported by thosepoints, near the center of the beam.As the beam bends from gravity (or a load), the outside radius is in tension. The beam is trying to stretch. The middle sees no compression or tension, onlybending. The inside of the radius sees compression, the force resisting bendingis that the beam resists getting compressed.If you support that beam at the bottom, as in just set it on the wall, the beamis (sort of...) forced into resisting bending ONLY due to compressive forces.If you bolt a little tab onto the beam's upper surface, and support it from there(as in hang it down between the walls), the beam resists bending due to tensileforces. It trys to stretch, but beams don't stretch usually...In all cases, the force is the least at the point of support, and gets bigger thefurther away from the support you go. In the case of wood cells, they simply cannot stretch, at all. They can resiststretching until the point of failure, but they won't get longer, it will justfail. Natural fiber rope is safer because it doesn't stretch before failure,similar to wood fibers. Synthetic ropes will stretch before failing and canbe lethal on ships. Crop dusters would rather hit aluminum lines (power lines)because they just fail, they don't stretch like old phone (copper) lines do.Wood cells can crush. If they're dry enough, they just break. If they're pliableenough, they sort of just squish, the cell wall stays in tact. That's whydry wood doesn't bend as well as wet wood. This is relative, ALL wood is wetto some degree. Dry rot is a fungus, and has nothing to do with dry, by the way...So.... to bend wood effectively, we need to make sure when we bend it, we supportthe wood at the outside of the radius. If you take a piece of metal palletstrapping, longer than the piece we're going to bend, and put "end stops" onit, VERY well attached so they cannot slip along the metal strapping, spaced apartthe SAME size as the blank of wood we're going to bend (so you can't userandom length pieces and cut them to size later, you can cut to size later, butall the blanks used in this jig HAVE to be the same size for it to work, needsto fit snug), we have an effective wood bending jig.Put the wood in it (steamed, boiled, wet off the tree, just not super dry - certainlynot 8 percent out of the kiln and left indoors in a dry environment) andbend. Those end stops will FORCE the entire wood bending action into compression,thusly making it work. If the wood fails, it won't fail along the outsideof the radius like in the above photos, it may experience a compression fracture,see my post about fixing a horiz stab a few months ago, and you'll seethat on the INSIDE of the radius. That would indicate the wood is too dry tobend. Strapping tape basically doesn't stretch, and the bends and wood we're talkingabout aren't very varsity, so will HELP to force the wood into compression, takingstrain off the outside wood itself, and will aid the process.Uh... does this help or just muddy up the waters?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hey Mike, not the most intuitive thing... let me try to explain.First, does the explanation about when you "free bend", meaning just hang ontoa piece of wood and bend it, that the outside half of the wood is in tension,the middle of the wood is neutral, and the inside is in compression?This is a basic force diagram sort of thing for a beam across a span sort of situation.To give a better verbalized pictorial, assume the beam is being held on the ends,in the middle. As in they taper to a point and are being supported by thosepoints, near the center of the beam.As the beam bends from gravity (or a load), the outside radius is in tension. The beam is trying to stretch. The middle sees no compression or tension, onlybending. The inside of the radius sees compression, the force resisting bendingis that the beam resists getting compressed.If you support that beam at the bottom, as in just set it on the wall, the beamis (sort of...) forced into resisting bending ONLY due to compressive forces.If you bolt a little tab onto the beam's upper surface, and support it from there(as in hang it down between the walls), the beam resists bending due to tensileforces. It trys to stretch, but beams don't stretch usually...In all cases, the force is the least at the point of support, and gets bigger thefurther away from the support you go. In the case of wood cells, they simply cannot stretch, at all. They can resiststretching until the point of failure, but they won't get longer, it will justfail. Natural fiber rope is safer because it doesn't stretch before failure,similar to wood fibers. Synthetic ropes will stretch before failing and canbe lethal on ships. Crop dusters would rather hit aluminum lines (power lines)because they just fail, they don't stretch like old phone (copper) lines do.Wood cells can crush. If they're dry enough, they just break. If they're pliableenough, they sort of just squish, the cell wall stays in tact. That's whydry wood doesn't bend as well as wet wood. This is relative, ALL wood is wetto some degree. Dry rot is a fungus, and has nothing to do with dry, by the way...So.... to bend wood effectively, we need to make sure when we bend it, we supportthe wood at the outside of the radius. If you take a piece of metal palletstrapping, longer than the piece we're going to bend, and put "end stops" onit, VERY well attached so they cannot slip along the metal strapping, spaced apartthe SAME size as the blank of wood we're going to bend (so you can't userandom length pieces and cut them to size later, you can cut to size later, butall the blanks used in this jig HAVE to be the same size for it to work, needsto fit snug), we have an effective wood bending jig.Put the wood in it (steamed, boiled, wet off the tree, just not super dry - certainlynot 8 percent out of the kiln and left indoors in a dry environment) andbend. Those end stops will FORCE the entire wood bending action into compression,thusly making it work. If the wood fails, it won't fail along the outsideof the radius like in the above photos, it may experience a compression fracture,see my post about fixing a horiz stab a few months ago, and you'll seethat on the INSIDE of the radius. That would indicate the wood is too dry tobend. Strapping tape basically doesn't stretch, and the bends and wood we're talkingabout aren't very varsity, so will HELP to force the wood into compression, takingstrain off the outside wood itself, and will aid the process.Uh... does this help or just muddy up the waters?Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "tools"
I tried an Aerocarb on my Ford installation. I tested it with the Aerocarband a Weber. It's been a few years so my memory of the details aren'tcrystal clear.I actually had the Aerocarb on the plane for its first and only flight withthe Ford. On the stand, the carb seemed to work well and I liked how simpleit was, and very nicely made. I had zero trouble with slide sticking. Thestarting process had to be a bit different due to the nature of the design,but once a process was figured out it was fine. It just starts to drip themoment the fuel is on, so that becomes part of the starting procedure.I probably ran it about five hours on the test stand with the aerocarb andabout the same with the weber. I seem to remember the weber being a bitsmoother, but that makes total sense considering the design. It seemed that it would be very hard to make an aerocarb stop feeding fuelto an engine. I think it is well worth experimenting with.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
I tried an Aerocarb on my Ford installation. I tested it with the Aerocarband a Weber. It's been a few years so my memory of the details aren'tcrystal clear.I actually had the Aerocarb on the plane for its first and only flight withthe Ford. On the stand, the carb seemed to work well and I liked how simpleit was, and very nicely made. I had zero trouble with slide sticking. Thestarting process had to be a bit different due to the nature of the design,but once a process was figured out it was fine. It just starts to drip themoment the fuel is on, so that becomes part of the starting procedure.I probably ran it about five hours on the test stand with the aerocarb andabout the same with the weber. I seem to remember the weber being a bitsmoother, but that makes total sense considering the design. It seemed that it would be very hard to make an aerocarb stop feeding fuelto an engine. I think it is well worth experimenting with.Douwe________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "tools"
By the way, I didn't figure ANY of this out... I've a VERY complete selection ofnearly every book on woodworking printed by the Taunton press in the mid 80'sand early 90's. I've got the first two hundred issues of Fine Woodworking magazine,and most of the first 50 or so from American Woodworking, Wood and Woodworker'sJournal. I taught myself everything I know about woodworking from all of this. I deal mostlywith solid wood and spend a lot of time designing furniture and joineryaround wood movement to prevent eventual failure due to inevitable wood movement.Many antiques are authenticated by inattention to this, and the resulting inevitablecracks that develop. By the way, plywood doublers on solid spars ARE NOT a good design. If you readthe aircraft repair manual, it does state that doublers can be plywood or solidwood. The solid wood is WAY superior for longevity because it will expandand contract with the spar (for example). The plywood will not and the glue jointwill fail.Of course, most spars are quartersawn, the most stable of conditions, and thathelps. Also, the better they are varnished, the more stable they are. If they'regiven three coats of epoxy, well applied, no problem, the wood is inert atthat point.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
By the way, I didn't figure ANY of this out... I've a VERY complete selection ofnearly every book on woodworking printed by the Taunton press in the mid 80'sand early 90's. I've got the first two hundred issues of Fine Woodworking magazine,and most of the first 50 or so from American Woodworking, Wood and Woodworker'sJournal. I taught myself everything I know about woodworking from all of this. I deal mostlywith solid wood and spend a lot of time designing furniture and joineryaround wood movement to prevent eventual failure due to inevitable wood movement.Many antiques are authenticated by inattention to this, and the resulting inevitablecracks that develop. By the way, plywood doublers on solid spars ARE NOT a good design. If you readthe aircraft repair manual, it does state that doublers can be plywood or solidwood. The solid wood is WAY superior for longevity because it will expandand contract with the spar (for example). The plywood will not and the glue jointwill fail.Of course, most spars are quartersawn, the most stable of conditions, and thathelps. Also, the better they are varnished, the more stable they are. If they'regiven three coats of epoxy, well applied, no problem, the wood is inert atthat point.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair College
Original Posted By: "wheelharp"
Lorenzo,You're exactly right about my misuse of the term crushed... thanks! Also, your succinct explanation is way better than mine, thanks again!Tools, who pretty much needs his hands to talk...Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair College
Lorenzo,You're exactly right about my misuse of the term crushed... thanks! Also, your succinct explanation is way better than mine, thanks again!Tools, who pretty much needs his hands to talk...Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair College
Original Posted By: Ray Krause
Does anyone know what time CC 30 at Zenith plant starts? I thought there wouldbe more info when I signed up, but there wasn't ...I looked on Williams site,and also couldn't find anything. I live about 3 hours away, and will probablyjust drive up the morning of, unless it starts earlier than say, 7 AM.--------Jon JonesIronton, MORead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Does anyone know what time CC 30 at Zenith plant starts? I thought there wouldbe more info when I signed up, but there wasn't ...I looked on Williams site,and also couldn't find anything. I live about 3 hours away, and will probablyjust drive up the morning of, unless it starts earlier than say, 7 AM.--------Jon JonesIronton, MORead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Mike,So far the carb seems to work OK, but it has not been tested under real conditions. According WW's recommendations, it and the mags should be overhauled by a reputable mechanic trained to do the job. Seems that job for the carb is about $1000.00. Wish someone would reproduce the carb, would maybe cost less! If I don't use the Stromberg, it will be because it doesn't work, so it would probably not be worth much! But I will make a note of your request.It's been great following your progress...I'm envious.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Michael Perez wrote:> > Ray, if you decide to off load your NS3-B Stromberg, I'd would be interested in it. I'll need one for my other A-65 when I finish the overhaul on it someday.> > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats> Mike Perez> Karetaker Aero> Jury Strut Fabrication/Installation> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 11:05:39 -0700
Mike,So far the carb seems to work OK, but it has not been tested under real conditions. According WW's recommendations, it and the mags should be overhauled by a reputable mechanic trained to do the job. Seems that job for the carb is about $1000.00. Wish someone would reproduce the carb, would maybe cost less! If I don't use the Stromberg, it will be because it doesn't work, so it would probably not be worth much! But I will make a note of your request.It's been great following your progress...I'm envious.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Michael Perez wrote:> > Ray, if you decide to off load your NS3-B Stromberg, I'd would be interested in it. I'll need one for my other A-65 when I finish the overhaul on it someday.> > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats> Mike Perez> Karetaker Aero> Jury Strut Fabrication/Installation> > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 11:05:39 -0700
Re: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Re: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb
Original Posted By: Michael Perez
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "wheelharp"
Douwe,The AeroCarb has a leaning valve that is nothing more than a needle valve that restricts the flow of Fuel to the inlet orafice. That is how I shut off the fuel flow. On my Jabiru, the AeroCarb is in a horizontal position to the engine, not vertical as it would be on an A-65. My starting procedure on the Jab is to open the throttle slightly, push in the mixture to full rich and hit the starter; no priming regardless of the temperature. It starts on the first, or second blade. It must start on fumes because I cannot visualize atomized fuel getting to the cylinders.Sonex told me to use the same procedure with the A-65, but I'm sure the fuel would be running out of the cowl, or soaking into the air filter. But there are a lot of planes running the VW engines with the AeroCarb mounted vertically with no problems.Did you try leaning the engine with the AeroCarb after starting? Most everyone has the AeroCarb set to start rich. So that leaning would have made it run more smoothly as compared to the other carb. But leaning on a Ford, or A-65 might be open to guesstimates and/or speculation. I guess on the A-65 one would just lean till it ran roughly, then enrichen a little.But thanks for the comments, it helps.By the way, the newer AeroInjectoer does not have the "sticky" throttle which is caused by the intake suction holding the slide tightly to the carb body while the engine runs. The newer carb has Teflon sliders that allow the slide to move more freely.Just information and thoughts.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 15, 2014, at 5:57 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" wrote:> > I tried an Aerocarb on my Ford installation. I tested it with the Aerocarb and a Weber. It=99s been a few years so my memory of the details aren=99t crystal clear.> > I actually had the Aerocarb on the plane for its first and only flight with the Ford. On the stand, the carb seemed to work well and I liked how simple it was, and very nicely made. I had zero trouble with slide sticking. The starting process had to be a bit different due to the nature of the design, but once a process was figured out it was fine. It just starts to drip the moment the fuel is on, so that becomes part of the starting procedure.> > I probably ran it about five hours on the test stand with the aerocarb and about the same with the weber. I seem to remember the weber being a bit smoother, but that makes total sense considering the design. > > It seemed that it would be very hard to make an aerocarb stop feeding fuel to an engine. I think it is well worth experimenting with.> > Douwe> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Douwe,The AeroCarb has a leaning valve that is nothing more than a needle valve that restricts the flow of Fuel to the inlet orafice. That is how I shut off the fuel flow. On my Jabiru, the AeroCarb is in a horizontal position to the engine, not vertical as it would be on an A-65. My starting procedure on the Jab is to open the throttle slightly, push in the mixture to full rich and hit the starter; no priming regardless of the temperature. It starts on the first, or second blade. It must start on fumes because I cannot visualize atomized fuel getting to the cylinders.Sonex told me to use the same procedure with the A-65, but I'm sure the fuel would be running out of the cowl, or soaking into the air filter. But there are a lot of planes running the VW engines with the AeroCarb mounted vertically with no problems.Did you try leaning the engine with the AeroCarb after starting? Most everyone has the AeroCarb set to start rich. So that leaning would have made it run more smoothly as compared to the other carb. But leaning on a Ford, or A-65 might be open to guesstimates and/or speculation. I guess on the A-65 one would just lean till it ran roughly, then enrichen a little.But thanks for the comments, it helps.By the way, the newer AeroInjectoer does not have the "sticky" throttle which is caused by the intake suction holding the slide tightly to the carb body while the engine runs. The newer carb has Teflon sliders that allow the slide to move more freely.Just information and thoughts.Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 15, 2014, at 5:57 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" wrote:> > I tried an Aerocarb on my Ford installation. I tested it with the Aerocarb and a Weber. It=99s been a few years so my memory of the details aren=99t crystal clear.> > I actually had the Aerocarb on the plane for its first and only flight with the Ford. On the stand, the carb seemed to work well and I liked how simple it was, and very nicely made. I had zero trouble with slide sticking. The starting process had to be a bit different due to the nature of the design, but once a process was figured out it was fine. It just starts to drip the moment the fuel is on, so that becomes part of the starting procedure.> > I probably ran it about five hours on the test stand with the aerocarb and about the same with the weber. I seem to remember the weber being a bit smoother, but that makes total sense considering the design. > > It seemed that it would be very hard to make an aerocarb stop feeding fuel to an engine. I think it is well worth experimenting with.> > Douwe> > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ________________________________________________________________________________Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "wheelharp"
I did a quick sketch of a bending strap to move the axis of the bend to the outsideedge of rib and put all fibers in compression. I was thinking of using 1/2"pallet banding, and in re-reading tools description of old furniture bendingstraps, it sounds exactly the same...doggonit, thought I had came up with somethingfor a minute! Anyway, I guess the downside is, you would have to cutyour rib exactly to size so compression would begin immediately as bend is started,but hey, these ribs are chocked full of precise cuts anyways-what's onemore!--------Jon JonesIronton, MORead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ribb ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
I did a quick sketch of a bending strap to move the axis of the bend to the outsideedge of rib and put all fibers in compression. I was thinking of using 1/2"pallet banding, and in re-reading tools description of old furniture bendingstraps, it sounds exactly the same...doggonit, thought I had came up with somethingfor a minute! Anyway, I guess the downside is, you would have to cutyour rib exactly to size so compression would begin immediately as bend is started,but hey, these ribs are chocked full of precise cuts anyways-what's onemore!--------Jon JonesIronton, MORead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ttachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ribb ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: larharris2 Harris
I read tools latest post AGAIN, and see where I drew what he was describing downto the last detail, pallet strap, blocks and all, so let me start over---"Tools, I made a drawing of the process you described..."--------Jon JonesIronton, MORead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
I read tools latest post AGAIN, and see where I drew what he was describing downto the last detail, pallet strap, blocks and all, so let me start over---"Tools, I made a drawing of the process you described..."--------Jon JonesIronton, MORead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
> Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By:> wheelharp(at)gmail.com
Clever. I like it. But too late for me.Lorenzo> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Clever. I like it. But too late for me.Lorenzo> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
Mike, seriously?!! All that for nothing! Good one... Still, a good discussion on what's going on when ya bend wood. Wing bows, ribcaps, etc. GREAT diagram of how to make a bending jig. The jig doesn't haveto be precise, the end blocks can be adjustable... or use shims. The part justneeds to fig snugly.Another trick, ammonia. Use that alot for bending balsa wood in model building.Not sure what's going on, need to check with a bud who's a wood technologist.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Mike, seriously?!! All that for nothing! Good one... Still, a good discussion on what's going on when ya bend wood. Wing bows, ribcaps, etc. GREAT diagram of how to make a bending jig. The jig doesn't haveto be precise, the end blocks can be adjustable... or use shims. The part justneeds to fig snugly.Another trick, ammonia. Use that alot for bending balsa wood in model building.Not sure what's going on, need to check with a bud who's a wood technologist.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: Bill Budgell
Just so that all new builders are clear....Nearly every wood/fabric wing built since the Wright Brothers was built withsimple rib jigs, with the cap strips soaked or steamed. No need to make analready tedious process more so...Gary BootheNX308MBRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:40:59 -0700
Just so that all new builders are clear....Nearly every wood/fabric wing built since the Wright Brothers was built withsimple rib jigs, with the cap strips soaked or steamed. No need to make analready tedious process more so...Gary BootheNX308MBRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ______Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:40:59 -0700
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "tools"
Gary, I did not find the capstrip bending tedious, nor this current discussion. I actuallyfind it quite interesting as I am gaining new knowledge and learning newskills.Keep talkin' Tools and you other guys. If I get bored I can simply hit delete.But I don't expect to any time soon!--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GAUSMC, USMCR, ATPBVD DVD PDQ BBQRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Gary, I did not find the capstrip bending tedious, nor this current discussion. I actuallyfind it quite interesting as I am gaining new knowledge and learning newskills.Keep talkin' Tools and you other guys. If I get bored I can simply hit delete.But I don't expect to any time soon!--------Semper Fi,Terry HandAthens, GAUSMC, USMCR, ATPBVD DVD PDQ BBQRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "Gary Boothe"
Lorenzo,I was reviewing your photos and your wing jig, as much as I can see and am wonderingabout a difference between your jig and mine... It seems yours has supports to clamp to on the INSIDE of the radius of the uppercap strip, whereas mine has them on the OUTSIDE (merely coincidence, not surewhy I built it that way...) of the radius. So I pull my strips up into thecurve and clamp them, while you bend yours down to the clamps.Think that's enough difference to cause the few of yours that broke, to break?Given how well yours were tested and steamed, just wondering why you even hadthat many that failed. ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Lorenzo,I was reviewing your photos and your wing jig, as much as I can see and am wonderingabout a difference between your jig and mine... It seems yours has supports to clamp to on the INSIDE of the radius of the uppercap strip, whereas mine has them on the OUTSIDE (merely coincidence, not surewhy I built it that way...) of the radius. So I pull my strips up into thecurve and clamp them, while you bend yours down to the clamps.Think that's enough difference to cause the few of yours that broke, to break?Given how well yours were tested and steamed, just wondering why you even hadthat many that failed. ToolsRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
WOW! Where did that come from? You guys go ahead and talk away...but, as Isaid, I wouldn't want newbies to have the impression that this is a highlytechnical process. I'm merely reminding that it's very simple. As for beingtedious, I'm glad you enjoy rib building so much, but, if it wasn't sotedious, why do so many builders search for pre-built ribs? And, Yes, I findrib building very tedious. Gary BootheNX308MB13 ribs into the 38 needed for my Boredom Fighter...-----Original Message-----
WOW! Where did that come from? You guys go ahead and talk away...but, as Isaid, I wouldn't want newbies to have the impression that this is a highlytechnical process. I'm merely reminding that it's very simple. As for beingtedious, I'm glad you enjoy rib building so much, but, if it wasn't sotedious, why do so many builders search for pre-built ribs? And, Yes, I findrib building very tedious. Gary BootheNX308MB13 ribs into the 38 needed for my Boredom Fighter...-----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "Dick N"
Hey Gary,How ya making the rudder bow? Is that a solid bent piece, or a lamination? Seemsthe vert and horiz stabs also have some decent bends. Looks like a fun plane!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Hey Gary,How ya making the rudder bow? Is that a solid bent piece, or a lamination? Seemsthe vert and horiz stabs also have some decent bends. Looks like a fun plane!Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... __________
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair College
Original Posted By: "wheelharp"
JonI'm signed up for that one also. It isn't specified in my paperwork either. Figure on 8-9 am. That is the way the last one went, but that one was at at Barnwell S.C. These things arent real structured.Dick N.----- Original Message -----
JonI'm signed up for that one also. It isn't specified in my paperwork either. Figure on 8-9 am. That is the way the last one went, but that one was at at Barnwell S.C. These things arent real structured.Dick N.----- Original Message -----
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By:> owner-pietenpol-list-server(at)matronics.com
Gary,Is that 38 ribs for the top wing, then another 38 for the bottom wing, maybe viceversa?I love that plane. Someone on Barnstormers just had a beautiful one for sale.But it couldn't be as nice as the one you will build. Keep building!Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 15, 2014, at 6:28 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote:> > > WOW! Where did that come from? You guys go ahead and talk away...but, as I> said, I wouldn't want newbies to have the impression that this is a highly> technical process. I'm merely reminding that it's very simple. As for being> tedious, I'm glad you enjoy rib building so much, but, if it wasn't so> tedious, why do so many builders search for pre-built ribs? And, Yes, I find> rib building very tedious. > > Gary Boothe> NX308MB> 13 ribs into the 38 needed for my Boredom Fighter...> > > -----Original Message-----
Gary,Is that 38 ribs for the top wing, then another 38 for the bottom wing, maybe viceversa?I love that plane. Someone on Barnstormers just had a beautiful one for sale.But it couldn't be as nice as the one you will build. Keep building!Ray KrauseSent from my iPad> On Aug 15, 2014, at 6:28 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote:> > > WOW! Where did that come from? You guys go ahead and talk away...but, as I> said, I wouldn't want newbies to have the impression that this is a highly> technical process. I'm merely reminding that it's very simple. As for being> tedious, I'm glad you enjoy rib building so much, but, if it wasn't so> tedious, why do so many builders search for pre-built ribs? And, Yes, I find> rib building very tedious. > > Gary Boothe> NX308MB> 13 ribs into the 38 needed for my Boredom Fighter...> > > -----Original Message-----
Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Original Posted By: "jarheadpilot82"
Builders,I just put a story on my website about a dangerous idiot who came to my booth atOshkosh to brag that the had talked a Corvair/Pietenpol builder out of usingthe forged pistons I have specified for 25 years. The idiot claimed I didn'tknow Corvairs as well as he did, and the additional cost of forged pistons, (less than 1% of a $10K plane) was a waste.The full story is at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/08/16/local- ... pistons/It is worth reading for the lesson of not listening to idiot local experts, andthe cost of being around fools in aviationThe plane and engine in question belong to Rick Schreiber. I like Rick a lot, andI didn't use his name on my site, but I do here because it is my heart feltwish that he rethink taking advice from this idiot. I have no idea what otherthings this fool talked Rick into. I have known too many people hurt in planesbecause they took advice from an idiot. -ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs
Builders,I just put a story on my website about a dangerous idiot who came to my booth atOshkosh to brag that the had talked a Corvair/Pietenpol builder out of usingthe forged pistons I have specified for 25 years. The idiot claimed I didn'tknow Corvairs as well as he did, and the additional cost of forged pistons, (less than 1% of a $10K plane) was a waste.The full story is at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/08/16/local- ... pistons/It is worth reading for the lesson of not listening to idiot local experts, andthe cost of being around fools in aviationThe plane and engine in question belong to Rick Schreiber. I like Rick a lot, andI didn't use his name on my site, but I do here because it is my heart feltwish that he rethink taking advice from this idiot. I have no idea what otherthings this fool talked Rick into. I have known too many people hurt in planesbecause they took advice from an idiot. -ww.Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p ... ___Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs